This Post is in response to this blog posting made earlier today. http://mmorpg.com/blogs/Jimmy_Scythe/022008/1198_FFA-PvP-Part-1-What-It-Is-And-Where-I-Stand
It really seems many people in the MMORPG community are against FFA-PvP. The only reason I can see this as being is because many players are used to playing games that are of an item based or level based system. These systems will not work for a good balanced PvP system. The author is biased in his opinion from playing games like WoW, EQ, Shadowbane, and the later days of UO. In these games items and/or levels created a huge advantage for players who attacked players of a lower level.
Now let’s take a system that was balanced to an extent and look at it. The early days of UO were the best days for many MMORPG players. This was a FFA-PvP game in its truest form from when the game went gold till the stat-loss patch. In a few days a player could be close to 7x and be a viable force to play the game. A player with mastered (as in 90 skill points) magery and swords could still take on a player with GM’ed skills if he was skilled enough at the game. Hell I remember times in playing the game of taking on groups of 3-4 players at one time during the opening stages. The game was balanced and yes the game also had its FoTM’s but these weren’t overpowered to the point where they were game breaking.
The items in this game were not a determining factor as well. It didn’t really matter what weapons you used to play with because they were all well balanced. Also another great thing about the game is if you died in a fight or someone griefed you, it didn’t matter because everything you had obtained could be replaced in a matter of no time. Please do not write an article on a prominent site when you are very ignorant to the fact MMO’s can be balanced in a PvP fashion. Maybe you should have written an article based upon the fact people got too emotional when they were killed as a newer player. It was the rage and feeling of lost time people had when they were PK’ed, because they hadn’t played the game long enough to be as good as the player who put in the time.
Let’s look at it this way. Say you logged onto Counter Strike for the first time and started playing the game. You’re running around with your glock and turn a corner and boom someone kills you with an AK. That is pretty frustrating because they had a bigger gun then you, body armor and grenades when all you had was your little hand gun and no skill playing the game. But if you had a skilled player with just the handgun and the newbie with the AK and body armor the skilled player would win that battle 99 out of 100 times. So don’t say an MMORPG can’t be balanced for PvP because you were killed looted and decapitated and you just couldn’t handle it emotionally. Because remember it’s just a game.
MMORPGS should be skill based upon the player and not upon the level, items, or amount of anything they have. I hate to say this, but a game needs to be developed in this type of setting so it can change the industry away from the PvE grindfest with PvP as a side thought mentality. One game, Darkfall is being developed that following this type of mentality. I hope for the industry as a whole this game does become successful so developers can start taking risks in trying new things with MMO’s instead of making another Everquest clone. Don’t get me wrong, I had fun playing Everquest the first time, but its not as much fun when I played its sequels, DAOC, WoW, AO, EQ2, Vanguard, Ect, Ect…
I think you are biased against FFA-PvP because of the small population of players as termed “griefers.” Every single game you play out there, you will encounter this type of player. If you had actually played Old UO you would have known there was much more to this game then the occasional griefer in the game. You probably just forgot all the goodness that was in the FFA-PVP type of world because you remember the negative emotions much more prominatly from the number of times you were killed looted and decapitated.
With FFA-PvP you had the anti-PK guilds, the PK guilds, the neutral guilds, the policing guild and the gank squads everywhere, all in a harmony in a system that worked. You had a system where players could play any role they wished to play because they had the option of doing so. They weren’t limited, and that my friend is the beauty of a FFA-PvP system. Without limits you make the game what you want to make it and therein lies the wonderful aspect of what an MMORPG can really offer. Not a story line you have to follow, or kill this many boars and receive so much gold, or kill this epic mob and receive the golden chalice of awesomeness. We don’t need more games like this, we have plenty of those. Don’t blame the FFA-PvP rule set; blame yourself for letting the Players in the GAME get in your head.
User Comments
I'll repost what I posted in Scythe's blog-
FFA PvP only "works" if the community is there.
The "lone wolf" will always be the victim. I hated the FFA PvP in UO until I joined up with a large guild. Garaunteed protection and friends who wouldn't grief you. It completely changed the game for me.
If everyone who played was garaunteed a good guild to run with and some teammates to support them, FFA PvP is actually not that FFA, but instead factional. It will break down in Guild vs. Guild or Faction vs. Faction, but there will always be those without a guild or faction to align themselves with, and they will always be the victim or victimize others.
That is why FFA PvP was pretty much abandoned long ago and Faction or Guild based PvP has become the "norm." It garauntees support and belongingness, and help eliminate the "random PK" factor which can (and will) ruin the game.
Open world (i.e. non instanced/balanced teams) PvP is generally all about strength in numbers. Sure, player skill, terrain, preparedness etc. will always help, but no matter those factors 30 vs 10 I'm always putting my money on the team of 30.
Griefing someone for no reason, which I define as "killing someone who has absolutely zero chance of defending themselves" just to be a d*ck and kill them is childish. The more that can be done to prevent this, the better. Even in a "FFA" game, measures SHOULD be taken to prevent vets from slaughtering noobs.
Vets who kill noobs are cowards. This is not an argument, it is fact. They blah blah blah about "Real PvP and challenge" but ganking/griefing is not real PvP, nor is it challening, it's a pathetic practice by insecure *ssholes who are too scared and cowardly to start a fair fight. Their bullys. Sad, lonely bullys.
Real PvP, just to let you know, is a fair fight or a fight where one party/person has a slight advantage, but the possibility of loss is always there. Ganking/griefing create NO possibility of loss, and are thus NOT real PvP. It's cowardice.
Most FFA PvP i have ever seen ends up being faction/guild vs. faction/guild anyway, it's just the few *sshats who are bored/unguilded etc. will greif/gank random noobs to feel better about themselves, and it's always pathetic.
In terms of full looting, it only "works" when gear is easily replaced and their is no "uber" gear. Like old Ultima Online. Full looting simple will not work in item centric games, nor will ever be attempted by any game that is item centric. Item centric + full loot = bankrupt devs and server shut down.
The closest I think we'll ever see in a modern, AAA title to FFA PvP is games with faction vs. faction and Guild vs. Guild. Any faction member can kill any one of an opposite faction at any time, any where. Any guild can declare war on any other guild, no matter the faction, and those guilds can kill each other any time, any where.
That is as close as I believe we'll see to true FFA in any future released AAA title.
Look at EVE, the only remaining mostly FFA PvP game. The majority of the uber-awesome exciting PvP people talk about is Corp vs. Corp. Corps are allowed to choose who they war with. But you also have ganker/griefer pilots who ruin the game for others because they are too scared to join the big conflicts, fight fairly, and risk losing their precious stuff.
You made my point for me by saying "With FFA-PvP you had the anti-PK guilds, the PK guilds, the neutral guilds, the policiing guilds and the gank squads everywhere, all in a harmony in a system that worked."
You are right, like I said, FFA PvP is all about community.
If you aren't one of these guilds, these "factions" then you are merely the victim of the system, not a participant in it.
HENCE, why so many games have gone to or are going to Faction based and/or guild based PvP only.
It garauntees that those who PvP aren't outside the system, but a part of it.
Getting ganked (which I define as simply being outnumbers/ambushed/swarmed etc.) is totally OK and a part of the game, IF you are a member of the faction/guild in opposition to those that ganked you.
If you are random Joe unguilded noob and a squad of PKs randomly kills you, it sucks, they are cowards, and you hate the game for it.
Get what I'm saying?
FFA PvP ends up breaking down into these groups, these guilds, these factions anyway, but it still REALLY sucks for those who are not part of the system.
And that, I think, is the reason so many dislike FFA PvP.
I played UO at launch and got PK'd enough that I didn't want to play anymore. That's what FFA PVP means to me. Load game, create character, die 10 times, cancel account, uninstall game.
Heerobya makes some good points. Without control or de-incentivizing griefers the gameplay experience is too influenced by the actions of others. For 11 years now, games like UO, Eve and Shadowbane have illustrated that the non-consensual PVP is about as much fun as non-consenual sex.
I really think that only a small % of people who want FFA PvP want it for the ability to gank/griefer others. Those that do want to gank/grief others are just tools, and nothing can be done for them.
I believe that the majority who want FFA PvP really just want FFA faction/guild PvP. They want to choose their alliances, choose their enemies, and wage their own wars, not the pre-defined allies/enemies the devs force them into.
If you were to create a game where Guilds could wage war with each other, and guilds could band together to form their own factions, and thus choose what other guilds/faction to war against, that would be enough FFA PvP for the majority of those who want FFA PvP.
For the small minority that just want to gank/grief random players and slaughter noobs, well, you are the reason FFA PvP doesn't exist anymore. It's not the "carebears" fault, it's yours.
grimfall - You can hardly make that assumption based on the games you mentioned. UO was a huge success, and began to fail after the changes that killed its PvP.
EVE -is- a huge success. 200k subscribers and a record 41k people on a single server at one time is a huge success. Don't think that because games aren't reaching WoW numbers that they are suddenly failures.
Yeah, FFA PvP is a minority.. a niche. Players who really deserve to comment on this subject know that. Most of them aren't griefers.. they just love the style of gameplay that it brings to the table. The challenge that just isn't there in PvE.
I don't want to force that on people who don't want it.. I just want a game for myself and people who also want what I want. Similar to you, people that don't want to be killed in PvP shouldn't play a PvP game. You quit UO because of it.. good. You should find a game that you enjoy, but what PvE lovers seem to be trying is to make it so that there aren't any games with harsh PvP. They want things changed, instead of finding a game better suited for them.
We're lucky that the developers of EVE haven't given in and turned their game into another PvE haven. As it stands, PvP lovers don't have many choices, and PvE lovers just keep trying to take our choices away.
FFAPVP rocks!!
Good article and right on. I didnt read that other blog you linked to cause I already know the author is biased against FFA PVP and all PVP in general in mmorpgs (just read his post history). Thus I deemed reading an entire blog by him to not be a wise time investment for me.
Thing is- FFA PVP is pretty much included in all the major PVP games. Starcraft, a classic, was FFA. You could unally at anytime. Most realistic shooters include friendly fire- from Rainbow 6: Vegas to Halo 3 to Battlefield. Now we have EVE Online, which stomps the mmorpgs in it's league (WoW and Lineage 2 I consider in a whole nother league)
thus, I feel there is nothing to argue in regards to Friendly Fire / FFA. Either you like or you dont. If you dont like it, then no point in showing up in a blog on FFA PVP just like its a waste of my time to show up in a blog against FFA PVP
btw, before I'm misunderstood, I have read some of Jimmy (I think that's his name) blogs on other topics and enjoyed them. But i just know I'm probably going to get offended if I read his thoughts on FFA PVP because I already know he has no love for mmorpg period. So thats what I meant. You can see ive posted in a few of his topics. So I'm not saying he's not a good blogger.
Happy Valentine
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