The following is a copy/paste from a Thread I made here on MMORPG.com
Please click the link HERE to view the thread and vote in the poll.
Thanks.
I've had this idea for a while and thrown it around MMORPG.com from time to time, so please tell me what you think.
In World of Warcraft, for the 5-person dungeons (in Outland) you have Normal and Heroic difficulty versions.
The Heroic versions drop better gear, and are more challenging and less forgiving of mistakes.
They require increased coordination, communication, higher base-line gear, and better class balance. So I guess you can say that they require more "skill" to complete in comparison to their Normal difficulty counterparts.
Would you like to see the same Normal vs. Heroic difficulty setting be applied to Raiding?
The current raid structure in games like World of Warcraft is already pretty hardcore. You have to plan and schedule your raids, make sure you have proper class balance, assign roles and use stategies, and of course (at least in WoW) have the appropriate base-line gear level.
So I'd say, you'd turn the current crop of raids into the "Heroic" version, and then create an easier version of the encounter and dub it the "Normal" version.
The Normal version wouldn't be as rigid in terms of strategy and class balance, the base-line gear levels would be lower.. in essence, they'd be much easier then the current raiding scheme.
Of course, by doing so, you'd have to offer appropriate rewards, which means gear that is better then the 5-person dungeons but not as good as the "Heroic" or current-crop of raiding gear.
You could even lower the size requirements if you so choose. Instead of 10 or 25 people required it could be 5 or 10 respectively. Not too sure about that idea though, because the large team size is half the "problem" with current raiding.
I think this is a great idea because:
1. It's gets more people in the door. You get more people experiencing the end-game, downing bosses and completing raids, what better way to motivate end-game PvE players then victory?
2. Good way to "ease" players into the more "hardcore" and challenging world of Heroic Raiding.
3. Why create content that only a small % of your player base will ever experience? With scaling difficulty settings, more people can see the content and experience all the game has to offer.
4. The current crop of raiders still have the best gear and are still looked up to. With my idea, you don't take anything away from the current crowd who raids in MMOs, but you give so much more to the crowd who doesn't raid now but wants to.
What do you think?
*obviously this applies to more games then WoW, but I use it as an example given it's popularity and reach in the MMO market*
User Comments
I don't want to raid. I don't want raiding to give ANY reward which make someone better at grouping. Best groupers deserve to be groupers and raiding.
I want my WHOLE progression to be in GROUPING, not missing any reward.
I dunno what is so freaking hard to understand. NO RAIDING.
If you want to make a raiding game, start at level 1 and leave my gameplay alone.
Reading is here to stay though, in many games with a PvE focus.
To deny such is to deny reality.
But how can we make raiding better?
And honestly, if you don't like raiding don't raid. Sure, you don't get the absolute best PvE gear if you don't raid, but here is a secret...
You don't NEED the absolute best PvE gear to complete any/all of the small group content.
Nor do you need the absolute best PvE gear to farm/solo in PvE successfully..
Raiding gear is designed for... raiding... and useful in.. raiding...
I think the problem is that you feel you are forced to raid to get the best gear. You are not. You are forced to raid to get the best gear for raiding.
If we are talking about WoW, I garauntee you that you can solo/quest/farm and complete every single small-group dungeon in both Heroic and Normal mode with the gear you get...
From Normal and Heroic small group dungeons, farming, soloing, questing etc.
I honestly don't know what the problem is.
heerobya: "Would you like to see the same Normal vs. Heroic difficulty setting be applied to Raiding?"
No. I'd like to see a sliding scale implemented so that the developers wouldn't have to hand-design a Normal difficulty as well as a Heroic difficulty. Make a 1-100 difficulty scale and ramp all the numbers accordingly. That Maul of Brilliance wielded by Urgo the Brutal at the 100 setting turns into a Tack Hammer of Pale Glow wielded by Urgo the Unfrieldly at the 1 setting. Heck, scale down the geometry as well. Urgo the Unfriendly might be half the size of Urgo the Brutal.
Why do that? So that the players can choose the settings. They get what they want, and the designers learn what players want. With two steps, the players are dumped into one of two buckets and they are at varying degrees of unhappiness because they want something slightly easier or harder. With a spectrum, the players pick what they want, and the developers can see the distribution of wants.
The great challenge is in making sure that everything gets scaled well.
Where would I dial in? At a pretty low number, I can tell you. I only care about being amused, not 'challenged'. I'd happily play right through World of Warcraft at about the 'difficulty' of level 20 if I had my choice. Raids included.
heerobya: "The current crop of raiders still have the best gear and are still looked up to."
Or looked down on as having a rather strange sense of priorities.
I agree JB that would indeed be the "perfect" solution...
but is it possible? My idea is a step in the right direction, and a feasible one... we know it is feasible because they (WoW) already do this with the 5-person dungeons.
I think the priority is fun, and fun is a relative term that varies in definition from person to person.
You may consider raiders strange for finding raiding fun, hell I love raiding, but to me any content in a MMO can be a great time if you are experiencing it with the right people.
My priority is fun, my definition of fun in a MMO lies in the social aspects.
As long as raid gear isnt PvP gear, im good with it. Otherwise, down with raiding...
Well yeah, PvE and PvP gear has gotta be seperate. For sure.
heerobya: "but is it possible?"
Possible? Sure. With computers, everything is just a matter of doing; SMOP. Can their current design and implementation accomodate it? Probably not.
heerobya: "You may consider raiders strange for finding raiding fun"
The people that I find strange are the ones that spend inordinate amounts of their time playing games (my fundamental objection to MMOs as virtual worlds). High-end raiding is one of the ultimate time sinks in World of Warcraft. Yes, this is America, and we can do anything detrimental to ourselves that we want to. I still find people with such priorities odd.
WoW has implemented a sort of difficulty scale to raiding, in Zul Amman, an entry level 10-man dungeon, there are encounters where the amount of loot you get depends how well your raid performs in the encounter. Also in Karazhan, a 10.man raid as well, a certain boss only spawns if you clear the trash leading up to it fast enough.
I'd like to see difficulty scaling implemented much like this. Maybe add in some sort of intelligent scaling system where the game calculates the performance of the raid and scales the encounter accordingly. The rewards would of course be proportional to this level of difficulty. This would ensure that even the casual players get to see the dungeons that are now restricted to the raiding elite. To keep the competitiveness factor in, the difficulty would of course need to cap at some point, to ensure that the hardcore crowd could still claim their precious 'world firsts'.
In terms of heroic vs non-heroic, I'd say that heroics are made too easy with high-end gear. Experienced players and raiders run these dungeons only to gain gold towards the AH and their repair bill.
I've raided in 3 different raid guilds, 2 of them being casual (3+ raids/week) and the last one being fairly hardcore (5+ raids/week). Just so you have an idea, the last one killed Cthun (back in the day) and was the 2nd raid guild on the server.
The reality is player skill was pretty constant, just some have more time to dedicate to raiding, which means they get gear quicker, which means they can do other stuff quicker. I used to play a rogue and to be honest the rogues in the casual guilds were actually better players than the ones in the hardcore one, they just had less time to play.
For raiding here is what you need:
1 - Time - Ideally a group of people that play everyday for at least 4-5 hours, ideally more
2 - Time - If everyone raids everyday, then you don't need to explain to people what was done yesterday, they already know (this is a major factor). Also less people to gear up so its quicker again (gear gets less dispersed).
3 - Time - To grind for mats for the pots you will need or to grind gold to buy them. Some people will buy gold, but then they are also using time, it's just their work time, that gives them they money.
4 - Leadership - A raid guild needs a good leadership to manage the raid schedule, motivate players and find good guides for the encounters. A good raid leader is also important.
5mans are more challenging than raids. In many raids, 10% of the people tend to be AFK/slacking (if not 20%). 1 person goes AFK on a 5man and you will notice it. Your actions also impact the end result a lot more, and skill shows a lot more than in the middle of the DPS zerg that raids are.
I used to recrute people to the 2 casual guilds and I would always get them to run at least a couple of 5mans with me, so that I could check them out.
Regarding gear:
- Rewards from 5man, even if heroics SUCK when compared to raid gear
- Raid gear is great for PvP and Vice-versa (weapons usually being the best example)
- Difficulty lowers dramatically as your gear improves. So in most cases, raiders can do hard stuff because they have good gear.
I bet you that if you were to plot raid performance in regards to gear it would almost be a 100% match. Skill is usually a small % in WoW (sadly).
So you pretty much want to dumb down even more an already dumb game?
WoW! I mean... WOW
Very constructive comment parki. Thanks for your contribution.... *cough*
Dumb game? Like I said, my "idea" doesn't do anything to the current crop of raiders, nothing is "dumbed down" for them..
It just opens more doors to more casual players. How is opening doors for more players dumb? Seems WoW opened the door to a new generation of MMO players, and now they have more money then God and the best MMO on the market.
Dumb? I think not.
What is dumb is calling WoW a "dumb" game without proof.
Show me undesputable evidence that you Parki have cleared all of WoW's raid dungeons, show me your Tier 6 toon with Illidan's twin warblades and I'll give your "argument" some credit.
But, unfortunately, you won't be able to prove it to me, you'll probably just look up some random guy with Tier 6 and say it's you.
People with your attitude piss me off.
You mock something for no reason other then that you don't like it. Your opinion is not fact, and neither is mine.
In my opinion, YOU are dumb for thinking that WoW is a dumb game.
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