General Discussion

Originally posted by Novaseeker

 

Originally posted by Vincenz

Nova, you keep spouting this...but let's also point out one significant difference...

Alcohol and cigarettes are also physically addictive.  They are literally a drug that your body interacts with in such a way that it can eliminate the power of self control for medical reasons.

 

last I checked, VIDEO GAMES DON'T DO THAT.

 

First, holding a bar owner responsible for giving someone too much to drink has nothing to do with whether the person drinking is an alcoholic.  It' behavior itself is problematic and leads to significant problems, even if the person is not driving afterward (being "drunk in public" is also an offense in many places).

Second, there is growing evidence that, in fact, MMOs stimulate the same area of the brain (overstimulate it, actually) in more or less the same way as opiates and alcohol do, and are addictive in the same way for the same type of addiction-prone brain.  It's more or less the same thing.  People talk about "physically addicting" -- but in reality the physicality of addiction relates to the limbic brain, and the neurotransmitters and related receptors there.  MMOs impact the same brain areas in addiction-prone brains, and this is the core of any addiction.

 

So whats your solution everyone takes a test to see what sort of brain they have and they get tagged like a herd of animals so they're forced to stay away from games?   Punishing everyone's fun because some people have addictive personalities due to brain chemicals is utterly ridiculous.   Its not the game developers or the common players fault that some people have a physical problem.   If they tried to pass that here in the US it would cause a HUGE uproar within the entertainment industry.   They tried it with rock & roll in the 80s and it failed.  We have a rating system, most nations have rating systems.   You can't punish an entire nation because some people have addiction problems.   Gaming doesn't cause you to keel over from heart failure or die from blood poisoning or die from it being laced by chemicals like drugs & alcohol can.  

Originally posted by TeflonEddie

It's a recognised truth that to get the most out of an MMO you have to invest a lot of time in the game.

As an example, say World of Warcraft, where you have to spend 3-4 hours a day, 4-5 days per week (for several months) in order to get the opportunity to "complete" the content by killing Illidan Stormrage.

This is a time investment that many would consider "unhealthy".

The question is; do MMO's have a social responsibility to discourage us from playing to such an unhealthy degree by aiming and pacing content towards the casual gamer, and if not.. should they?

You have a thoughtful post witha  question thats really self answering.  DOes your mom still need to wipe your butt?  Do you still have to have someone hold your hand in order to walk across the street?  Do you get to tell yourself when you get another piece of candy or does your mom always smack your hand when your reaching fora  cookie?

To all these questions im assuming your an individual that is living on your own since you seem to have pretty nice grammer and spelling.  So im assuming your going to be able to do those things on your own.  One thing im tired about here in teh states is so much regulation that the gov't is passing telling us we cant do things cause they believe we're too stupid (which for some its true) to know that on our own.

My point is their a company that is trying to make money, you pay for their product and play it for hours on end, it is entirely your choice to do so and can walk away whenever you feel bored of it (which for most is pretty quick).  This crap about some people having an addiction for gaming is BS, its called FUN.  Normaly when you find something fun you dont want to stop doing it, but of course people like the ones you hear about "I lost my wife, kids, and job to this game I NEED HELP!"  No you need some damn willpower, those people are just idiots that cant help but be so bored and miserable in their lives that htey need something to havea n alter ego in.

Second, there is growing evidence that, in fact, MMOs stimulate the same area of the brain (overstimulate it, actually) in more or less the same way as opiates and alcohol do, and are addictive in the same way for the same type of addiction-prone brain.  It's more or less the same thing.  People talk about "physically addicting" -- but in reality the physicality of addiction relates to the limbic brain, and the neurotransmitters and related receptors there.  MMOs impact the same brain areas in addiction-prone brains, and this is the core of any addiction.

 

BTW, you should really share your "growing evidence" with the AMA (that's American Medical Association, btw) because as of their conference in June of 2007 they concluded "there is currently insufficient research to definitively conclude that video game overuse is an addiction."

You can read about it here and even download the actual doc files from the AMA study.

p.s. You should also really read up on what is physically addictive about alcohol, particularly the specific reaction to ethanol.  It is in absolutely no way remotely similar to the reaction the brain has playing an MMO.

Originally posted by Novaseeker

Which is similar to the way alcohol and tobacco are treated.  A bar owner is responsible for serving someone too much alcohol (whether the drunk kills someone or not) -- the bar owner, the one who is selling the addict the alcohol, can't sit there and say "hey, it was his choice to drink that much".  No -- the law holds you accountable, since you are pushing that addictive substance to the drunk and you know how much they are drinking.  The tobacco companies as well are held responsible for people who smoked too much for years and got sick as a result of that -- all personal choice of the smoker, right, but the company selling them the cigarettes knows the risks and is making money off of it, so yes, they are held accountable for the public costs of that behavior.  MMO companies know *exactly* how much their accountholders are playing, and yet are acting like the bar owner who says "hey, if that guy wants to sit there and drink 24/7, it's his choice and not my problem".  Well, not the case under the law for bar owners -- MMO companies are the next in line.

It's only a question of time until this hits MMOs.  Everyone on the internet is a STFU libertarian because the internet "is kewlz wiht no rulez", but the reality is that most of the offline world looks askance at people who are creating and selling addictive things and knowingly making money off of the % of people who become addicts ... and choose to regulate that to some degree.

The bartender analogy might have some bearing on people who play MMORPGs in internet cafes, but I don't think it has any bearing on people who game from their home.  As long as I take the alcohol home with me in a sealed container, the law has absolutely no problem with the store selling me as much as I want.  What I decide to do with that alcohol in entirely MY responsibility.

Gaming is just one aspect of an absolutely huge multimedia industry.  If they put any requlation on MMORPGs, they would have to put it on the rest of the industry as well.

You have a thoughtful post witha  question thats really self answering.  DOes your mom still need to wipe your butt?  Do you still have to have someone hold your hand in order to walk across the street?  Do you get to tell yourself when you get another piece of candy or does your mom always smack your hand when your reaching fora  cookie?

To all these questions im assuming your an individual that is living on your own since you seem to have pretty nice grammer and spelling.  So im assuming your going to be able to do those things on your own.  One thing im tired about here in teh states is so much regulation that the gov't is passing telling us we cant do things cause they believe we're too stupid (which for some its true) to know that on our own.

My point is their a company that is trying to make money, you pay for their product and play it for hours on end, it is entirely your choice to do so and can walk away whenever you feel bored of it (which for most is pretty quick).  This crap about some people having an addiction for gaming is BS, its called FUN.  Normaly when you find something fun you dont want to stop doing it, but of course people like the ones you hear about "I lost my wife, kids, and job to this game I NEED HELP!"  No you need some damn willpower, those people are just idiots that cant help but be so bored and miserable in their lives that htey need something to havea n alter ego in.

Addiction is not the issue. Willpower is not the issue. MMO Content Design is the issue.

An example someone made above regarding killing 600 bunnies; this type of content allows both hardcore and casual players to complete it, though of course casual players get there later than the hardcores. Players have the CHOICE to control the pace at which they play the game.

In the example given, (end-game raiding in WoW), the game REQUIRES you to be at the computer for 3-4 hours straight in order to experience the content, and the developers are increasing the amount of content based on this model. WoW does have options for casual PvE gamers, but it's real PvE focus is clearly skewed towards those who are willing to spend those 3-4 hours on a regular basis.

Setting aside the issues of willpower/addiction and considering the question from a game design point of view; would you consider that encounters geared to last a consecutive 4 hours any different than encounters geared to last a consectuve 2 hours?

Players would still have the option to do two of the 2 hour encounters and hence still play the 4 hours they used to, however the MMO developer would be giving the player the CHOICE of cutting their playtime into healthier "blocks".

Government: We are pleased to discover that the majority of you find that no corporate responsibility for the psychosocial effects of gaming products is warranted.  It is with great satisfaction that we observe that you have accepted our ideal of a free market system and democracy placing all responsibility on the individual.  As you know, investing long hours on entertainment is for your personal benefit and an overall content society.  We can agree that wasting time on scrutinizing your decision-makers, or contemplating revolution or subversion of any kind, only leads to sadness and the disintegration of our social fabric so carefully constructed by our wise forefathers.  You are doing well, you are the best of the best, and we love you.  Please, continue to blame yourselves, continue to plunge our toilets and dig our ditches, and invest all nonessential funds in your continued enjoyment.  With warm regards, the Man

In the example given, (end-game raiding in WoW), the game REQUIRES you to be at the computer for 3-4 hours straight in order to experience the content, and the developers are increasing the amount of content based on this model. WoW does have options for casual PvE gamers, but it's real PvE focus is clearly skewed towards those who are willing to spend those 3-4 hours on a regular basis.

Setting aside the issues of willpower/addiction and considering the question from a game design point of view; would you consider that encounters geared to last a consecutive 4 hours any different than encounters geared to last a consectuve 2 hours?

Players would still have the option to do two of the 2 hour encounters and hence still play the 4 hours they used to, however the MMO developer would be giving the player the CHOICE of cutting their playtime into healthier "blocks".

You know what I enjoy, sometimes, in my leisure time?  Watching a movie.  Some of them last 2 hours.  Some of them last 4 hours.  Some weeks, I even watch 3 or 4 movies in a week!

I don't, however, watch 3 movies a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year and then complain that Hollywood has ruined my life.

Raid takes 3-4 hours?  COOL...RAID WHEN YOU HAVE TIME TO DO IT.