General Discussion

I've been seeing people say more and more often that "oh, I want to play a sandbox that doesn't have any story to get in the way of the game" or "hey, I wish there was a real sandbox out there where players make all the story".  And, while I won't say that these people are idiots, I will say that I think they adhere to a crappier definition of "sandbox game" than I do.

I think we can all agree on this much: ideally, a player in a sandbox game would have the ability to impact the game world, via his character, in much the same way that he could affect the real world, right? He could buy a plot of land (or stake a claim), start chopping down some trees on that land, build himself a house, catch fish in the stream out back and set up a shop on his front porch to sell salted fish to passerby-dragonslayers, etc.

But... just because it is necessary for a sandbox game, for a character to be able to affect the world around him through what he harvests, builds, kills, heals, or whatever... that doesn't mean that this must be the only way story can exist in a sandbox MMO. If it were, you would actually be limiting the potential of the game, and limits are exactly what pro-sandbox players want to avoid, right?

If we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it (and assume that a sandbox game is one that should mimic a person's ability to influence the real world, but with a fantasy or sci-fi twist), a game where only the players create the story, where only the players drive the game along... well... it doesn't fit the description of a sandbox game.

In the real world, people don't really "drive the story", so to speak. There is more going on than they have control over, and it is not only the "story" they create, but how they react to the "story" that is created around them and the "story" that was around before they ever existed, that makes the world what it is. After all, humans don't create anything... they just take something that was there all ready and form it into something a little different.

Anyways, it is my view that a sandbox game a game that is full of dev-created story and plot, characters and nations, action, etc., before a player ever sets foot into the game; it is a world in motion. Then, once players do enter it, they have great influence in where the story goes from there.

I do not see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which is plain, flat, and level. I see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which all ready has been shaped into castles and is waiting for the players to step in and start playing. Isn't that a bit more colorful?

Originally posted by fischsemmel

I've been seeing people say more and more often that "oh, I want to play a sandbox that doesn't have any story to get in the way of the game" or "hey, I wish there was a real sandbox out there where players make all the story".  And, while I won't say that these people are idiots, I will say that I think they adhere to a crappier definition of "sandbox game" than I do.

 

I think we can all agree on this much: ideally, a player in a sandbox game would have the ability to impact the game world, via his character, in much the same way that he could affect the real world, right? He could buy a plot of land (or stake a claim), start chopping down some trees on that land, build himself a house, catch fish in the stream out back and set up a shop on his front porch to sell salted fish to passerby-dragonslayers, etc.

But... just because it is necessary for a sandbox game, for a character to be able to affect the world around him through what he harvests, builds, kills, heals, or whatever... that doesn't mean that this must be the only way story can exist in a sandbox MMO. If it were, you would actually be limiting the potential of the game, and limits are exactly what pro-sandbox players want to avoid, right?

 

If we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it (and assume that a sandbox game is one that should mimic a person's ability to influence the real world, but with a fantasy or sci-fi twist), a game where only the players create the story, where only the players drive the game along... well... it doesn't fit the description of a sandbox game.

In the real world, people don't really "drive the story", so to speak. There is more going on than they have control over, and it is not only the "story" they create, but how they react to the "story" that is created around them and the "story" that was around before they ever existed, that makes the world what it is. After all, humans don't create anything... they just take something that was there all ready and form it into something a little different.

 

Anyways, it is my view that a sandbox game a game that is full of dev-created story and plot, characters and nations, action, etc., before a player ever sets foot into the game; it is a world in motion. Then, once players do enter it, they have great influence in where the story goes from there.

I do not see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which is plain, flat, and level. I see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which all ready has been shaped into castles and is waiting for the players to step in and start playing. Isn't that a bit more colorful?

/signed

Originally posted by fischsemmel

 

I don't want to be in an mmo that holds my hand and walks me from point A to B to C to.. well you get it.  But I also don't want to be in a barren wasteland of nothingness where I can just open some shop for others, who have no quests to really go on making many of my items kind of pointless or something.

I want a fully realized living world where everyone's got a story.  Be what you wanna be, do what you wanna do.  Lots of quests to undertake, and so much to do otherwise...

I think games are starting to realize this type of 'world' slowly.

As long as the players can have an effect on the story in some way, then yea, Id say that could work.  The big problem with stories in MMOs is usually that theyre static and heavily instanced, so they feel more like a single player RPG.  

Oblivion and GTA are both considered "sandboxy" type of games, even though they have a storyline.  To me, its more about the world element and the ability to build, create, and change.  In theory, you could have a storyline in addition to these elements. 

I didnt read your post, just like I dont pay attention to the story in games.

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Originally posted by fischsemmel
I've been seeing people say more and more often that "oh, I want to play a sandbox that doesn't have any story to get in the way of the game" or "hey, I wish there was a real sandbox out there where players make all the story". And, while I won't say that these people are idiots, I will say that I think they adhere to a crappier definition of "sandbox game" than I do.

I think we can all agree on this much: ideally, a player in a sandbox game would have the ability to impact the game world, via his character, in much the same way that he could affect the real world, right? He could buy a plot of land (or stake a claim), start chopping down some trees on that land, build himself a house, catch fish in the stream out back and set up a shop on his front porch to sell salted fish to passerby-dragonslayers, etc.
But... just because it is necessary for a sandbox game, for a character to be able to affect the world around him through what he harvests, builds, kills, heals, or whatever... that doesn't mean that this must be the only way story can exist in a sandbox MMO. If it were, you would actually be limiting the potential of the game, and limits are exactly what pro-sandbox players want to avoid, right?

If we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it (and assume that a sandbox game is one that should mimic a person's ability to influence the real world, but with a fantasy or sci-fi twist), a game where only the players create the story, where only the players drive the game along... well... it doesn't fit the description of a sandbox game.
In the real world, people don't really "drive the story", so to speak. There is more going on than they have control over, and it is not only the "story" they create, but how they react to the "story" that is created around them and the "story" that was around before they ever existed, that makes the world what it is. After all, humans don't create anything... they just take something that was there all ready and form it into something a little different.

Anyways, it is my view that a sandbox game a game that is full of dev-created story and plot, characters and nations, action, etc., before a player ever sets foot into the game; it is a world in motion. Then, once players do enter it, they have great influence in where the story goes from there.
I do not see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which is plain, flat, and level. I see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which all ready has been shaped into castles and is waiting for the players to step in and start playing. Isn't that a bit more colorful?

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Would you consider the GTA series of games from GTA 3 to GTA 4 as not having stories due to their strong sandbox features? The reason why I ask is because by your supposition any strong sandbox qualities to the game must come at the expense of the story. This logic fails in the face of titles like the GTA series, and even the MMO SWG (pre-NGE), which such titles have both strong stories and strong sandbox features. A sandbox game that is purely sandbox is Secondlife, and it is successful by many accounts. It may not garner the accolades or the attention of WoW, but the fact that thousands of paying users login to create their own stories is significant. None the less, a sandbox game shouldn't be without story, as our real world has a nearly uncountable assortment of stories about them. Some come to us as religious parables and myths. Others come as 'historical' chronicles and romantic poetry, and songs. Our entire existence, a sandbox one, is rife with compelling and sometimes terribly scary stories. Would a sandbox MMO really be any different than the attempt to create a world akin to the scope of Robert E Howard, Robert A Heinlein, or JRR Tolkien? No.

-- Brede

Originally posted by fischsemmel

I've been seeing people say more and more often that "oh, I want to play a sandbox that doesn't have any story to get in the way of the game" or "hey, I wish there was a real sandbox out there where players make all the story".  And, while I won't say that these people are idiots, I will say that I think they adhere to a crappier definition of "sandbox game" than I do.

 

I think we can all agree on this much: ideally, a player in a sandbox game would have the ability to impact the game world, via his character, in much the same way that he could affect the real world, right? He could buy a plot of land (or stake a claim), start chopping down some trees on that land, build himself a house, catch fish in the stream out back and set up a shop on his front porch to sell salted fish to passerby-dragonslayers, etc.

But... just because it is necessary for a sandbox game, for a character to be able to affect the world around him through what he harvests, builds, kills, heals, or whatever... that doesn't mean that this must be the only way story can exist in a sandbox MMO. If it were, you would actually be limiting the potential of the game, and limits are exactly what pro-sandbox players want to avoid, right?

 

If we get right down to the nuts and bolts of it (and assume that a sandbox game is one that should mimic a person's ability to influence the real world, but with a fantasy or sci-fi twist), a game where only the players create the story, where only the players drive the game along... well... it doesn't fit the description of a sandbox game.

In the real world, people don't really "drive the story", so to speak. There is more going on than they have control over, and it is not only the "story" they create, but how they react to the "story" that is created around them and the "story" that was around before they ever existed, that makes the world what it is. After all, humans don't create anything... they just take something that was there all ready and form it into something a little different.

 

Anyways, it is my view that a sandbox game a game that is full of dev-created story and plot, characters and nations, action, etc., before a player ever sets foot into the game; it is a world in motion. Then, once players do enter it, they have great influence in where the story goes from there.

I do not see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which is plain, flat, and level. I see a sandbox game as a box that is full of sand which all ready has been shaped into castles and is waiting for the players to step in and start playing. Isn't that a bit more colorful?

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Originally posted by DeaconX
Been arguing