General Discussion

Ok first for the info, I am gay. I am supposed to love cute, pink, ethereal Elves. That doesnt really belong here, but I thought I tell you so you put this in the right context. I  have been an Online for many years. My career started with SWG (Star Wars Galaxies). I also spent a lot of time in Everquest II (EQ2).

For about a year now I am in LOTRO. Now if you have played it or at least seen the screenshots, you can see it is a breathtakingly beautiful world. I love the world, the vistas, the places, and being a Lord of the Rings fan I thought being there would be a dream. Now I am there, and its boring as hell, and I don't even know why.


Here comes a real outing: I am not a passionate hater in gaming, but if there is something I passionately hate, its World of Warcraft. Why, you may wonder? Its popular, its successful, it has over 10 Million subscribers. The reason is, like LOTRO, WOW is a "cute" world. Its is all, pinky, sweet and like candy. Even the Orcs and Trolls and nice and pink. I mean, I want my share of nice and cute, but when its an overdose, its like you get bad teeth.

When I played SWG, I had a Dancer, I was a scantly dressed male dancer, earning money with dubious services in a fukked up cantina, harassed by Stormtroopers, while my Jedi was regularly in threat to be killed by some imperial hired Bounty Hunter out of the blue. And I loved it! I mean, yeah, it had also great beauty and cuteness. But it was also dangerous. Going to PVP you really risked something, back then. There was darkness and evil and angry people, and... well fukked up places.

In Wow as in LOTRO, I always have this feeling of being in a fairy-sugar world with gentle Hobbits and ethereal Elves, rusty Dwarves and well humans, and all with a Fedex-problem. "Fetch me 20 of this..." There is the Dark Lord Sauron at the doorstep, but hey, MY biggest problem is I lost my collection of pipeweed in Hobbiton, can you please fetch it for me, I give you a pie." Sometimes I just want to grab some REALLY mean Orcs (meaning those of LOTR movies, not those pink, cute WOW-Orcs!) and just pillage and burn the damn shire until every friggin Hobbit KNOWS what war is!

I am a bit disappointed of myself, heh. LOTRO looked SO great. And yet, the Age of Conan beta thrilled me much more, now. Dark Tavern, bad mooded quest givers, evil Tyrants, people who backstab you at the next turn... thats more like home. Because you dont know what happens, because there is contrast, shades of grey. And mainly because those LOTRO/WOW games all now circle around COLLECTORS. I call them collectors, because they don't play Elves or Dwarfs or what. They speak ALL the time about faction points and kill statistics and where to find the best gear and the best reward... It just kills every atmosphere, and I blame World of Warcraft for bringing that to people! That way of hanging carrots in front of a donkey, making everyone greedy for the even better gear or even faster horse or what. Instead of playing a role in a world, they collect things and statistics to brag, to compare. And no game has perfected that so viciously than WOW, and LOTRO is a kind of copy. Cuteness and collectorism.

My almost perfect MMO was City of Heroes. Men ins skintight clothing... err ok scratch that... I mean, there was NO gear. None at all. And thus, no endless hunt for better receipies, or better loot drops, or purple shoulder pads-of-death or WHATEVER. Just plain fight and fun, no hunt for greed and envy, no uber rareness no endless grind for 10.000 hamster noses.

Man I want some dark cantina or tavern now. If I see ONE more "jolly tavern host" in a "nice mystical village" with someone whose greatest misery is his misplaced cake I am going to yell!

I have played ethereal Elves, alright. And for a time it is nice and good to be ethereal and cute and ...well Elvish. But those games are a damn OVERDOSE, and I feel like I have sugar-poisoning now and I just want some muddy, dirty, bloody mess somewhere to feel fresh and ... clean again. Maybe I am rly going to Age of Conan and chop some Pictish heads from their shoulders, then I will feel better. ^^

Well then, play Conan. Problem solved.

Originally posted by Elikal

And mainly because those LOTRO/WOW games all now circle around COLLECTORS. I call them collectors, because they don't play Elves or Dwarfs or what. They speak ALL the time about faction points and kill statistics and where to find the best gear and the best reward... It just kills every atmosphere, and I blame World of Warcraft for bringing that to people! That way of hanging carrots in front of a donkey, making everyone greedy for the even better gear or even faster horse or what. Instead of playing a role in a world, they collect things and statistics to brag, to compare. And no game has perfected that so viciously than WOW, and LOTRO is a kind of copy. Cuteness and collectorism.

that's not my experience. Don't get me wrong, I like working for better gear but I've never heard anyone going on and on like you inidicate there. Perhaps a better kin or different server? Well, doesn't matter, you don't like the game which of course is fine. Play Conan and that will be more to your taste.

Originally posted by Elikal
You killed my inmersion!

Here is, fixed for you.

Hey Elikal, you wouldn't happen to be a roleplayer would you? I've pre-ordered AoC and am very satisfied with the beta. Like always, I'll be RPing ingame.

And killing the shit out of people who cyber in /say chat, since all RP servers are PvP servers as well.

Yeah, agree w OP...

Biggest conceptual fail in MMORPG design EVER: No bad guy PCs in LoTRO...

OK, you are making a multiplayer game based on an enormous IP which is all about a titanic struggle between good and evil... like... a titanic struggle between good and evil? a multiplayer game? Like, wouldn't it be kinda logical if we had both good and evil in a game about a titanic struggle between good and evil? Hello Turbine, anyone there?

AoC might turn out real gritty in a fun way unless it gets swamped by immature gankers as in PoTBS. Gritty is cool if it's got some kind of point. We'll see how it turns out after a few months imo.

I love gritty games with a dark world. Unfortunately EAMythic has failed to bring that to Warhammer Online, which if you read any of the books is some of the most brutal stuff you can read.

Age of Conan has done the trick though. I wouldn't mind newer, non-fantasy themes for gritty MMORPGs. Dark Sci-Fi, post apocalyptic, etc. would be great for an MMO.

Know what else would be awesome? A brutal fantasy MMO with a heavy/death metal (music) subtheme.

Originally posted by markoraos

Yeah, agree w OP...

Biggest conceptual fail in MMORPG design EVER: No bad guy PCs in LoTRO...

OK, you are making a multiplayer game based on an enormous IP which is all about a titanic struggle between good and evil... like... a titanic struggle between good and evil? a multiplayer game? Like, wouldn't it be kinda logical if we had both good and evil in a game about a titanic struggle between good and evil? Hello Turbine, anyone there?

AoC might turn out real gritty in a fun way unless it gets swamped by immature gankers as in PoTBS. Gritty is cool if it's got some kind of point. We'll see how it turns out after a few months imo.

No it wouldn't and there are many threads as to why. Also, I'm unsure if the OP is talking about bad guy pc's in particular.

But the "evil" side in the books is just a catalyst for the story. They don't have a point of view with the exception of the key players. They are not meant to be developed beyond what they are.

If there are any issues with LOTRO it's that there is a lack of danger, I'll grant you that. If a  mob chases you it gives up a bit too easily. Also, too many static mobs just standing around, dotting the landscape waiting to be killed.

But other than Monster Play, PC bad guys don't belong.

edit - realized I went way off topic with my post.....

Ok, back on topic, I don't mind cute worlds, I thought WOW was fine, and LotRO looked as I expected.

But I agree, a game with an edgier feel would be cool, sort of like an old Single player RPG called Planescape Torment.

Originally posted by glord

I love gritty games with a dark world. Unfortunately EAMythic has failed to bring that to Warhammer Online, which if you read any of the books is some of the most brutal stuff you can read.

Age of Conan has done the trick though. I wouldn't mind newer, non-fantasy themes for gritty MMORPGs. Dark Sci-Fi, post apocalyptic, etc. would be great for an MMO.

I wouldn't discard WAR out of hand like that... Many people aren't aware that Warhammer IP is actually an over-the-top parody of all the high fantasies that take themselves too seriously.

At it's heart, Warhammer is more like Monty Python and the Holy Grail - people get chopped to pieces, squashed by catapulted cows and die like flies from the black plague - but in a fun way! It's gallows humor, dancing on the piles of corpses kind of thing.. If you're looking for emo gloom then Warhammer isn't for you. If you like laughing your head off at missfortune of others and yourself - the absurdity of existence and all - then Warhammer is your perfect setting.

AoC might turn out gloomy enough in a serious way. Different strokes for different folks.