General Discussion

A few rebuttals:

First of all the claim that twitch combat doesn't apply to RPGs. There are plenty successful RPGs that use twitch combat... From the top of my head... Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Elder Scrolls Series, Arx Fatalis, etc. The system we're using nowadays is basicly the diablo system(Now in 3d, but still the same system).

Lag issues. I have to agree that they need to be taken into account... But lag is always there. Like a friend of mine in Gunz used to say to everyone who shouted "OMG Lagger", "We're on the internet we all lag". I see FPS players complaining all the time about lag, even when pings are pretty low. Also, twitch combat isn't the only way to make combat more involved.

The no potion system by itself doesn't introduce a fear of death like a PD system would... Not if you don't implement harsh penalties for dying. 9dragons has no healing potions and it's fairly like everyother MMO(They have other money sinks). Nowadays I see alot of games boasting that they won't introduce death penalties(Yeah, I'm looking at you Champions Online)... They claim that, if you already lost the battle you shouldn't be punished anymore for it. Fair point, but if you don't actually lose anything from losing the battle, how exactly did you lose the battle?

EVE has actually one of the best systems I've seen. You might say it's cash oriented but... In the game world it makes sense.

I know I didn't reply to the fate points idea before and it's because I'm actually torn on that issue. Part of me thinks it's a great idea. The other part sees how other players would see it... "Ok, let's get myself killed for today and then log off." Maybe with a longer time interval... Let's say a month? Or even a week?

I never found a way to reasonably implement the heir idea. Best way to do it for me would be just, hoard your treasures somewhere safe that only you know... When you die, go back there. Then you can RP that you were iPwnN00bs long lost son, recently returned.

Originally posted by ianonmmorpg

This thread suddenly got busy... so much to respond to , so many good ideas....

Itzcoliuhqui, I agree completely that we'd need a very solid combat system. I imgine that people would be more willing to accept PD (Permadeath) if we had twitch combat (=FPS) and so they could feel that their skill let tem down. But I think that this system would be difficult to run thanks to lag, and to be honest it's not what having an RPG character is about. I like FPSs but a RP character has its own skills and abilities quite unlike my own and so it should be the skills of the chars not the players as regards direct combat. Sure its your 'good-sense' that commands them,  but its their weapon-skill etc. But yeah, whatever system is employed the player needs more than simply hit,hit,hit.

The vital organs comment is a clue towards a more realistic system, its not what hits you or even how hard, its where they hit you. A gentle poke in the eye is more telling than the hardest punch in your glutimus maximus, factor in a weapon and you've a complicated system but much more realistic and fully capable of having an amateur hurt even an expert, especially when several on one.

As regards no health/level meter and no insta-heals... again I agree fully. The idea that you can deduce the strength of those around you based on little more than a sign over their heads and the ability to interogate every piece of kit they carry... seems a bit odd to me. I dont mind magic use to peek at someones kit and of course watching them in action is a good way of gaining intel. By removing the insta-heals (except in 'miraculous' circumstances) you make life more difficult and perhaps go someway towards PD without actually needing to impose PD all that often. Again not knowing your foe will futher make life difficult.

Rappletek (and Gestalt11 and Cotillion99), in WOW I agree would be a poor place to implement PD for the reasons you state, a single lv70 versus everyone else who couldn't make it (Actually its just made me think of Highlander- there can be only one!!!). I like the unlawful Pkers comment, I imagine a city with laws which thanks to the sandbox nature of the game are imposed by the PCs (democracy or despotism) and enforced by the PCs and any NPCs that have been hired as the local militia (needed to allow city life). I think I'd already proposed a 'knocked back to save point' idea and so you could easily work in a sizable delay. If we imagine your character is dragging themselves through the mud, or being washed down river by currents having been knocked into it... days could pass before they come to their senses. And if we assume you dont know how bad it was, you may well be worried that your char is PD... until they are available again after a couple of days wandering in a fever. Techleo makes a similar point from LotRO system which if I understand also has an injury system.

I wouldn't want a system that relyed on being rich, in Eve as highlighted by Rawrg, your using cash as its a technological service that clones you back into the game, so its fair that its cash orientated. I guess if a wizard was willing to rez someone for cash then thats fair enough, but typical anti-PD actions of the players must represent some skill they've developed rather than a fat wallet. I would like to think that those people at the bottom of the social ladder the ones who face death daily would be most skilled at avoiding PD unlike the rich banker who simply avoids danger in general.

Gestalt11, I hope my 'fate points' could equate to your 'Lives', although not as many as 30, as I'm looking at them tending to respawn daily... this gives both more and less at the same time. A char can now survive hostile terrain each and every day,  but may well fall if faced with a group of hostiles in this same terrain.

Also I agree that increasing the complexity of the combat system and advising people to run-away would help a PD enabled game but may well turn off folk (Oh well, that's me not getting paid) but it should (hopefully) attract a number of players who've been looking for something a little bit more realistic... and frees them to be real heros not just guys/gals who (like any other) made it to max level.

I'd built a procreation system for my dragons in a tabletop RPG, each new generation being an evolution of their parents and (as magic pervades the world) the developed strengths of the parents influence the offsprings own development (maybe positive or negative). I tried to employ it for humans, but when RPGing for humans time tends not to run so quickly so we didn't get much use out of it... but in an MMO years in realtime will pass and so we can have many years pass in game... time enough to generate kids and apprentices etc.

I imagine a kid going on the hunt for their parents killer.... yeah, I'll be hunting them down for killin my char.

not at all more to read more to the discussion, ^_^

i colour coded this for ease of reading (i also didnt reply in any kind of order lol)

upon reading 'lives' i shuddered in ill feeling but after a bit of thought RW localised days with an ammount of lives per day 3-5 seems quite acceptable although different servers could simply give more lives for a more relaxed feeling, or even a hardcore server with one life per day, this system would encourage players not to die and yet not punish them too much.

unfortunaitly this wouldnt differentiate between types of death so you could still have a high level character come and kill you 3 times at the beging of the day. and policing the game wouldnt be hard as a lot of players will always nominate to do so (a system of player based help/policing community is used in EVE to help new players etc)

however as EVE does something right, its relative system of loss becoming pointless with later game cash amounts. however i'm not sure this can be avoided if loss of items is a punishment for death, as later game players will have the money to repurchase their old equipment or something similar. Loss of items however does make sense, you die you dont take anything with you.

a possible solution would be a hight level workable craft system circa Ultima online, where anything could be made and each player has their own touches they can add, upon death maybe completing a certain quest to recover something similar to your lost equipment, then allowing early game players to recover their things or late game players to make something similar, with whatever differences they need.

Love the idea of the character becoming NPC but carrying on with life in a daze or being picked up by a friendly player/NPC and then the player coming back to their character after a period of lucid behavior, HOWEVER immplomenting this could become difficult, the npc may wander in to areas that a player would just die again or end up in a position the player doesnt know at all (although i like that idea i dont think many would) or even just dying further as an NPC. so it could work but needs work to be likeable by many players, (it reminds me of pen and paper RP games where the story teller may take over the players character in delerium) . i have to dissagree on the Lotro system it sounds good but in play it just makes you slow for 30 seconds, and in no situation does it become something that really needs to be avoided. sorry if i re itterated the save point, issue i was more highlighting the area location, as so like your classic RPG (Final Fantasy etc) you wouldnt have a save point in the middle of a level and just be able to reload again and again from a key point.

i disagree there are plenty of players who would come to play this, however the game its self would need to be enticing, as many dont just come for the mechnics

this also sounds very workable in Pen and Paper RP games, and would need work in an MMO situation but it does sound like a good way to imploment player development through death. unfortunaitly it may also become a situation of bordom with a character leading to players terminating their characters just to play something new. But it does bring up the topic of time. i'll save that for a later post maybe hah.

and lastly these to me are all linked, and i agree FPSRPGs dont often work, and they also set you in some rather constriced game styles (historic, modern or scifi- very little fantasy options) dont get me wrong i personally think there are plenty of fantasy games on the market and another one would be swallowed by the massive WoW and upcoming AoC communities.  but unline most MMO's the hit system does need to be worked to be deeper, no one would instantly die from repeated bites to the foot from a rat, or by that reasoning a shot to the head would genrally kill instantly, somewhere in there there would need to be a balance, however i would take a guess that most players who would be attracted by perma death would find a more realistic shot to the head more enticing if it did kill.  organs and understanding of medical workings could be too complex for many players but a dumbed down version of real medical practice would mean that players could treat injuries. this would mean healing time would become important too.

lol ok erm thats going to be too much text for probably most of you sorry.

Rappletek.

Originally posted by Itzcoliuhqui

A few rebuttals:

First of all the claim that twitch combat doesn't apply to RPGs. There are plenty successful RPGs that use twitch combat... From the top of my head... Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Elder Scrolls Series, Arx Fatalis, etc. The system we're using nowadays is basicly the diablo system(Now in 3d, but still the same system).

Lag issues. I have to agree that they need to be taken into account... But lag is always there. Like a friend of mine in Gunz used to say to everyone who shouted "OMG Lagger", "We're on the internet we all lag". I see FPS players complaining all the time about lag, even when pings are pretty low. Also, twitch combat isn't the only way to make combat more involved.

EVE has actually one of the best systems I've seen. You might say it's cash oriented but... In the game world it makes sense.

I know I didn't reply to the fate points idea before and it's because I'm actually torn on that issue. Part of me thinks it's a great idea. The other part sees how other players would see it... "Ok, let's get myself killed for today and then log off." Maybe with a longer time interval... Let's say a month? Or even a week?

I never found a way to reasonably implement the heir idea. Best way to do it for me would be just, hoard your treasures somewhere safe that only you know... When you die, go back there. Then you can RP that you were iPwnN00bs long lost son, recently returned.

yes i was going to make this point but in most of the games that i could think of the system is only used in offline games morrowind for instance had a twitch mixed system that could become enfuriating with misses from eye to eye distance as you swing your sword, oblivions updated version of this system works but again could become like RFonlines end game dodge where the opposing characets stats would allow them to be untouchable.

Lag is unavoidable and there is no way of getting around that, people will moan, and dissconnects are inevitable too, its not the players fault but could be exploited if a retribuke on punishment was too great, lag death happens... not every one in the real world has the reations to jump out of the way of the car.. i see it like that..

in the EVE world the system is perfect and fits the expendable scifi space faring game completely but it wouldnt work so well in a fantasy setting where items shouldnt be mass produced and availabe for repurchase upon respawn

player interest is the fuel of MMO worlds, no player interest no money, no money no game, and no one would pay to wait a week. a day is probably as far as you can push it, two for people who act badly, if they want to come back after that then they will if they dont then the game looses a player that many would be happy to see leave

the issue with this is the world expanse needed for using that, otherwise 'hidden' treasure would be found very often, maybe worlds along the SWG style enviroment would work but something like GW has no oppertunity to hide treasure.

Rappletek

upon reading 'lives' i shuddered in ill feeling but after a bit of thought RW localised days with an ammount of lives per day 3-5 seems quite acceptable although different servers could simply give more lives for a more relaxed feeling, or even a hardcore server with one life per day, this system would encourage players not to die and yet not punish them too much.

unfortunaitly this wouldnt differentiate between types of death so you could still have a high level character come and kill you 3 times at the beging of the day. and policing the game wouldnt be hard as a lot of players will always nominate to do so (a system of player based help/policing community is used in EVE to help new players etc)

I think you're just putting too much time into thinking of giving the game ways to protect low level characters(why does the game even have to be level based?). Instead the game should provide the tools for low level characters to protect themselves. Namely a way to defend themselves.

If a veteran player could die from a lucky shot from a new player, would he not think twice about attacking the new guy? Same goes for the new player, he'll approach veteran players more cautiously since he'll know that they have a better chance at killing them.

Also, if things like fatigue, hunger, thirst influenced characters... They'd be more hardpressed to cooperate rather than destroy each other. A fully driven player economy would be a big step on this. People would need to be explorers(to find resources, make maps, etc), they'd need farmers(any kind of resource gatherer), resource processors(grain is not food, you need to prepare bread from it!).

If nothing else, a world like this would make a very interesting experiment on inter-personal relationships online.

Edit:

player interest is the fuel of MMO worlds, no player interest no money, no money no game, and no one would pay to wait a week. a day is probably as far as you can push it, two for people who act badly, if they want to come back after that then they will if they dont then the game looses a player that many would be happy to see leave

If you're arguing about a Perma Death system, that doesn't really enforce Perma Death... Then you basicly end up without Perma Death.

The point isn't making them wait a week to play(That doesn't make sense). The point is having fate points as somewhat of a... "You got lucky this time... Don't expect to survive this kind of shit often." 

Players would continue to play, but they'd be more wary as to not die! Which to me is the whole point, making players afraid of dying.

If you just give them 3 a day, they'll just... Play their game until they run out of fate points and relog the next day. They still won't be afraid of dying, because... Tomorrow is another day.

the issue with this is the world expanse needed for using that, otherwise 'hidden' treasure would be found very often, maybe worlds along the SWG style enviroment would work but something like GW has no oppertunity to hide treasure.

And also, like I said multiple times along this discussion... Most of the concepts I'm talking about wouldn't work on most games out now. Do I think Perma Death works on games that are out now? Clear as day for me, I'm positive it won't work.

ok as this is a proposed RPG then the character generally needs to develop, and the player needs to engage with their character and as an MMO  engage with the characters around them,  as such development doesnt need to be 'level' based but it is a very user friendly way to display development, other games such as EVE that use a skill system are the same under a different pretense each skill is just like a level. as for the engagement players who go through harder events with their character begin to relate more and are likely to use it more, as for the engagement with other members of the community, without this you might as well play on your own on an RPG (which most of have perma death with save points and in which case if thats what your looking for you dont need an MMO), but the best way to form these social ties is to have them interact at lower levels to they play togeather throughout the rest of the game, however without the higher players playing with the lower characters it forms groups of players that started at the same time.

this all proves in a way that true perma death where a character would dissapear upon death wouldnt be attractive to most players however prior proposed forms of it would work.

Edit: 

and as such i agree with you perma death is not implomentable but harder punishments for dying in certain ways is and is needed over the die respawn die respawn to which death doesnt mean the end of anything, instead it may even mean a quick way back to the spawn point

 however a message wouldnt detur most players and a week would put most of them off as MMO worlds are very competative, you would fall so far behind a player that before you died you were better than.

Originally posted by Rappletek

this all proves in a way that true perma death where a character would disapear upon death wouldn't be attractive to most players however prior proposed forms of it would work.

Errr... No. Just no. What that all proved, at best, was that levels are a rather user friendly way of presenting character progression.

Originally posted by Rappletek

and as such i agree with you perma death is not implementable but harder punishments for dying in certain ways is and is needed over the die respawn die respawn to which death doesn't mean the end of anything, instead it may even mean a quick way back to the spawn point

See... You can't agree with me on this. Because I believe perma death is implementable.

I think, that perma death is implementable in a dynamic world. Which is funny... Because one of the key features on a dynamic world is perma death(not just players, npcs as well).

While most games now catter to the whole be a big immortal hero... I don't want that. Especially because I never ever felt like a hero on these games. A good mortal hero is good enough for me. I'd like to be in a game where I pass through a player and I can say "Wow... That's player X, he once single handedly stopped a bandit raid on our town." A few days later he shows up poisoned and people decide it would be nice to make a statue to honor is memory.

Sure, this may never happen in my life time. But that doesn't mean I have to aim low just because I can't implement it now.

I'll need to give up work soon just to keep up with this thread :)

Itzcoliuhqui, I'd not said that FPS cannot apply to RPGs and accept that you can build an FPS style RPG, I was mearly pointing out that Role-Playing is about assuming a role that is not necessarily your 'native-one'. Hence I could play as Conan even if I'm in a wheelchair with only one arm (I'm not but I could be). I like the idea of the mind behind your character being the one whom I'm interacting with, not your hand-eye co-ordination (or even your 'modem-speed') but your intellect. Hence I'd prefer an RPG to be character profile based, sure an FPS can have a profile that modifies your abilities, but in that case we may as well stick with a cunning selection of combat stances and moves rather than FPS. But as I said, that's what I'd prefer.

As for EVE being cashed based, yeah sure it is, and as Rappletek  and I agree, that's fine. But I'd prefer (that word again) a non-cashed based by system. As I said, I have no probs with someone offering a service (eg:rezzing) for whatever rewards they want (lets say cash), but I'd want the