General Discussion

Originally posted by Shannia

I've been away from the boards the past week because I wanted to see the game for myself and see crafting in particularly.  The instancing in this game is just horrible.  You go in an instance to go into another instance to go into another instance... I mean seriously, at many times in this game you are literally six instances deep into the same zone.  IMHO, they could have balanced that out a lot better.  Nothing breaks immersion like being in a zone and having to find which version of that zone a friend of your's is in so you can meet up and quest.  Sure, there are other mechanics about it, but it is LAME!

This is a good example of a player being part of the problem.   A dev team can do whatever they want.  So you don't like instancing, that's just your opinion.  I like it, that is my opinion.  Now factor in 100 million opinions.  Who are they doing to listen to?

I'll tell you who, themselves and only themselves, there are too many players to do what any individual player wants.

Let me sum up - you can't please everyone - so there is no ideal game - so it is up the players to have fun or not have fun with less than ideal games.  That is my point. 

Let me put in another way, some people are going to bitch about AoC, WAR and any other new game that comes out, they are going to bitch and cry and cancel accounts, while others have fun playing . 

Let me put it one last final way - you can not custom tailer a game for one person when 500,000 people are going to play it. 

Originally posted by mike470

But, when people keep arguing, it gets developers attention to push it to the next level. ....

I agree with you there. But its one thing  to argue. It's another thing to go out of your way writing hundred of hate posts to keep people from playing a new game, just because it was not custom tailored to you. Which some people are doing.

I've always been of the opinion that noone is forcing anyone to play the game a certain way.  While AoC has some limitations, it could still be played (somewhat) in the manner of the player's choosing. 

It's what I do.  I'm an immersion player.  I love it and always have, but I would never force it on anyone else.  I play the game the way I want, when I want. (I happen to be a roleplayer).  For me, it's all about having fun.  If I'm not enjoying myself, then there is no point in playing.

(I also write short stories and a blog about my (and my wife's) adventures.  Here's a link.  I'm shameless, I know, but I enjoy sharing my love for the genre. 

Entry #1

Entry #2 - The Following Day

Originally posted by GreenChaos

I won't get into the cost, time and difficulty, of prototyping developing and testing a MMO from the developer's perspective.   Let's just say making a MMO is not an easy thing to do, at all.

The big problem with the genre is the players attitude, that all MMO should be just one way.

A good example of this is here
AoC - is there any limit to the depth this genre can plummet to?

This guy thinks all MMOs should be his way, no instancing, and that if any game has it its not only bad, it's destroying the genre.

On top of that MMOs are a popularity contest.  That is why you see so many AoC vs WAR vs WoW debates.  People want to know which is the most popular.  It's no fun being in a MMO with 10 other people.

I don't see any future for this genre as long as players demand a specific list of features.  Because everyone has their own list, we all don't agree, and yet we all want one huge popular game.  It just isn't going to work people.  Sorry.

AoC have make it a ART to simplify the quest system by making a game to grind from lvl1 kill 10x this mob up to lvl80 still kill 10x this mob, some quest in AoC ask you to even kill 120x and alot of quest you can repeat constantly, not to mention how easy the game helps you to find everything.

Maps are small you fight over mobs is hard some maps are realy empty not many mobs and with open pvp or you eather wait for respawn mobs to many on same quest or you been killed and have to run back to hunt spot, so annoying grind fest thats never seen before so badly designed as in AoC.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by mike470

But, when people keep arguing, it gets developers attention to push it to the next level. ....

I agree with you there. But its one thing  to argue. It's another thing to go out of your way writing hundred of hate posts to keep people from playing a new game, just because it was not custom tailored to you. Which some people are doing.

If AoC end up with lets say 200k people its fault of developers they have faild not players base who whine and complain so much about game.

True some make just topics to make AoC look bad, but the game have many flaws and bugs and boring gameplay(quests), this will eventually cost funcom customers like it or not, 5 years in developement and they come up with endless grind quests kill 20x these mobs that plain stupid(this stay same up to lvl80) or its purely made like this with in mind of new market named CONSOLES, pc gamers are just beta testing it, and funcom never was intended to make game enjoyable for pc gamers, few maybe but not for majority that im sure of.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

I won't get into the cost, time and difficulty, of prototyping developing and testing a MMO from the developer's perspective.   Let's just say making a MMO is not an easy thing to do, at all.

The big problem with the genre is the players attitude, that all MMO should be just one way.

A good example of this is here
AoC - is there any limit to the depth this genre can plummet to?

This guy thinks all MMOs should be his way, no instancing, and that if any game has it its not only bad, it's destroying the genre.

On top of that MMOs are a popularity contest.  That is why you see so many AoC vs WAR vs WoW debates.  People want to know which is the most popular.  It's no fun being in a MMO with 10 other people.

I don't see any future for this genre as long as players demand a specific list of features.  Because everyone has their own list, we all don't agree, and yet we all want one huge popular game.  It just isn't going to work people.  Sorry.

What is it that distinguishes these games from singleplayer and standard multiplayer games? What is it that make these games Massive Multiplayer?

That is what I discuss in my thread. And what I discuss has nothing to do with preconceptions on how a massive multiplayer is supposed to be, what I discuss, is HOW massive multiplayer is being taken away.

How can you honestly argue that instancing locking people into small pockets of reality containing anywhere from 5 to 50 players, is not anti-massive-multiplayer? Isn't it EXACTLY the ability to play with a huge amount of other players, that makes this genre what it is?

-------------------

Here is a scenario (that I used in the other thread):

A standard multiplayer game consists of a lobby+serverlist. Each server in the list runs exactly one map. To change to another map, you go to the serverlist and pick a new server. If you pick a server with a new map, you will go to a new area, which will appear once you have loaded. If you pick a server with the same map, you go to a copy of the same area, just with new players.

AoC consists of a range of zones, that are each comparable to the map of a standard server above. To change to a new zone, you walk up to the exit and switch to the next zone, which will appear once you have loaded. Not unlike going to the server list and picking a new server with another map. Or you can simply switch to another copy (instance) of the same area, just with new players. Not unlike going to the lobby and picking a server with the same map that you are already in.

And each zone isn't bigger than any standard multiplayer map to boot.

The problem is, that  these games have come dangerously close to standard multiplayer games, and have thrown away a good portion of what distinguished them as being massive. They hold far less players per zone (50 for each zone instance in AoC - compare that to the whopping 128 players in Joint Operations), and they can't even boast bigger zones than a standard multiplayer map can.

To me it seems like you are going for the man instead of the ball when you attack me instead of my arguments.

Originally posted by Malivius

(I also write short stories and a blog about my (and my wife's) adventures.  Here's a link.  I'm shameless, I know, but I enjoy sharing my love for the genre. 

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Entry #2 - The Following Day

Your journal entries were great!   I especially enjoyed this part:

"If we survive the night, perhaps this will be the beginning of a journal or logbook I will keep.  If we don’t, then I leave here an account of what has happened this night.  Only the morning light will tell…"

It reminded me of the journal from Ultima V that told of the account where Lord British was taken by the Shadowlords. It added to the suspense of the game.  It was an artifact of world-building, which is exactly what you've done, by chronicling your adventures.

I agree- people can play MMOs any way they wish. They can grind through them, skipping the quest notes, levelling as quickly as possible on a race to endgame. Or they can immerse themselves in the lore of the world, which you can do in AoC.  Well, at least in Tortage.  The higher you level, the less the quests immerse you in Conan's world, and more about collecting this or that (my opinion, of course). 

But if developers gave just us the possibility to immerse ourselves just a little bit, there would be more like you who would chronicle their exploration.  To me, that's the key. 

To your point, anyone can immerse themselves however they choose. For example, in WoW you could swim along the coastlines searching for pearls. It was cool the first few times.  One of the druid questlines that gave you your aquatic form was pretty amazing. But there wasn't enough of these.  If they gave you a reason to explore the ocean, like the possiblity for treasure, or to find some hidden artifact that might affect your character in some signifcant (but balanced) way, tons of people would be running all over that world exploring.  I mean, what if it were possible for you to switch to the other faction-  to possibly go horde and betray your race.  That would be fascinating, and would open up a whole new world of play.

Maybe I'm wishing for things that are too much out of a developer's realm due to time and cost.  Who knows. But I'd even be happy with a baby step in that direction. What if the developers encouraged such chronicling as you have done, giving you blog space on their forums to write to your heart's content.  The incentive for you to write may be that they create a questline just for your character from what you've written...maybe something very small, but something that would spark the game world into a more vividly detailed place. To me, this would encourage exploration, and would only benefit the developers and other players in the long run. 

One thing I don't get is why games are moving away from things like teleportation spells, levitation spells, speed enhancing spells, water breathing spells, illusion spells, etc.  Are they afraid of PvP inbalance that much?  In EQ teleporting was a great thing.  People would ask for ports all over the place and it would build the community.  It was a service and you could choose to use it or not.  It was a good way to get around and made such classes that had the ability feel useful. 

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by mike470

But, when people keep arguing, it gets developers attention to push it to the next level. ....

I agree with you there. But its one thing  to argue. It's another thing to go out of your way writing hundred of hate pos