General Discussion

It may seem we're heading for rock-bottom but we have to. There is only one way to go after you hit rock-bottom.

Yours is a pretty bold statement. Devolution? Honey, nothing stays the same. You should know this deep down, especially if you're older of age.

For better or worse (not really, it always comes full circle) it's evolution.

The population's demands changes with the passing of father Time.

What you/we can do is wait for something to come along that shows the genre HAS come full circle.

The problem with MMOs are not necessarily the developers, rather the community.   UO if you recall, I was there, was controlled by hordes of gankers.   You couldn't safely set foot outside of a town without dying.  

I recall spending all morning mining, only to have two guys come up to me, kill me and take all of my hours of work away.    I remember a high level mage (strangely enough ran into him in EQ years later) who asked if I wanted some spells.   I of course said yes, brought a friend along, he proceeded to kill both of us and take our house key.   We lost everything. 

The problem with UO was that someone who could spend 12+ hours a day in the game ruled the game.   There were no punishments and no controls to prevent outright murder.    A few people who had more time to spend in UO ended up ruining the experience for countless others.    I'm quite sure it was fun for those taking, but those being killed ended up terminating their accounts and developers do not like that.

Secondly a focus on graphics has created issues with MMOs.   Graphics trump game play for many players and developers feed this frenzy with pretty colors.  Unfortunately this leads to instances and such in order to add more pretty colors but not increase lag. 

So we as an MMO community have received what we asked for.   Controlled worlds and pretty graphics.   Don't blame the developers, blame yourselves.

Actually the thing about UO player justice is a big problem no game has yet managed to solve.

I think DAoC was the first one with a work around that opposing players could not talk with each other, so avoiding smack talking. This is an accepted feature these days in pvp games and I doubt it will leave soon.

Problem with Trammel was that the conversion was crap too. They expected at most 50% to move and were surprised when more than 80% moved.  (I still  claim for years that UO is not a pvp alone but also belongs to crafters and other social types)

I still agree with the poster that all following mmorpgs tried to be more games than their first counterparts which tried to be worlds. And I hope that some developers decide to go more for a world feeling where customers stay longer than just games feeling where people leave for the next better looking one.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I guess this

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

says it all.

No need to use more words on this  thread, so typcal for young frustrated adults on MMORPG.COM

You know PAY to play, that's the holy grail of gaming.

A lot think they can do it, very few are choosen. And Conan is certainly not one of them.

How in the world anyone could compare Wow/TBC anno 2008 with any other MMORPG project outthere.

MMORPG.COM users have lost ALL reality in game design, fun and polished game development.

As for UO: ask its developper Lord British: he made a mess out of his own Tabula rasa MMORPG in 2007.

And those who say that ALL elements of Wow anno 2008  were already present in UO are out of their minds.

Auction houses anyone? Arenas anyone? Battlegrounds anyone?

Its the same as saying every shooter brought nothing new to the genre since Space Invaders.

So I only like space invaders and the rest is a copy.

What are you all smoking I sometimes wonder....

Blatant WOW fanboi spam...at it's best.

Great reading. Agree with everything OP wrote about.

I too have been waiting on that UO replacement. I looked at UO but they still have that Trammel nonsence which totally ruined it for me. Pre-Trammel was great.

I happily enjoy Eve until something that is released to capture my imagination that isn't a backwards step in the evolution of MMORPG.

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Originally posted by Xasapis
To the OP:
Taking the viewing angle of your original post, I think that you will never be satisfied with any MMO ever released, for a couple of reasons.

• The main reason is that you have idolised the times you had in UO. The first MMO we play usually defines our expectations and needs for anything we play after that. Like the first love, impossible to forget and defining of what we are to expect from that point on. There is a lot of nostalgia involved with the games of the past. Time tends to make us forget all the bad things and remember the good things. A month going back to UO will be enough to remind you the reason(s) that made you leave the game.

Regarding the thread title, I don't think that any evolution is present in the gender. In fact, it's more akin to time-jumps. You get one game with innovations, that then spawns imitators. Then you have your next innovation jump, which again is followed by more imitators. The last jump was done by WoW. I don't believe we have gone past the imitators phase, not yet.
As for MMOs and graphics, there is art and there is graphics engine. Those two need to complement each other. When one is bad or outdated, the other suffers. And when those two suffer, the immersion suffer. I sense a trend in these boards lately that suggests that a good MMO should have an outdated graphics engine. The people who say that, are still stuck with the imitators. Sometime, hopefully in the near future, we'll see a new innovator coming along.

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I call bunk because my own "first love" MMO was Asheron's Call 1 and I don't think it was the best. I think it was on the right track with the huge world concept, but that it had major imbalances in gameplay that were often hit with the nerf bat machine from Hell to cover the tracks of its flaws. Then my "second love" MMO was SWG, the same issue arose. So, no, your argument is false in that if I exist and I do not hold Asheron's Call or SWG to some magically impossible esteem then it is entirely possible the individual's own argument can be assessed similarly. Therefore, attack the argument and not the person.


-- Brede

A lot of people are pointing to needing PvP in a sandbox like UO.  You don't really need to have all out PvP to have an expansive world that allows you to advance in many different ways.  Right now character building is very limited in games in that you go out and kill things.  There should be other ways to advance a character then through combat IMO. 

Quests could be so much more then they are.  Right now we are steal dealing with the same static quests from the early MMOs, but with a more advance system to make things easier.  The devs have yet to experiment with ways to make quests and mob spawning more dynamic in nature so that camping can be removed and quests are not always the same for everyone. 

Overall big games seem to be stuck in the same mold for the most part.  No one is trying anything new that hasn't been done before.  AoC has tried a new combat system, but I don't find it any better then autoattack and click on ability when you need it.  It just seems to bring you back to the days of spam clicking.

PVP ruins an otherwise good MMO.   Developers need to create virtual worlds that challenge the player, stop relying upon the players to challenge themselves.

PVP in a level or gear based MMO will never be skill based, therefore not fair to the players.    That will lead to the player base leaving.   Since time is the factor that decides all fights, many players who have less time will leave the MMO.    Eventually those with more time will get bored with having no 'newbs' to get easy kills from and they too will leave. 

The solution is to build an MMO that is challenging due to AI.   I envision a 6-12 person raid that is actually like a real D&D experience of old.    Where its unpredictable, NOT scripted encounters.   All ran by the gaming engine.    Where player skill in their character will be rewarded.   Where innovative player tactics will be rewarded.    Where having the exact class makeup in a group isn't required.     This is the future of the MMO genre if its to survive. 

PVP  in LOTRO, Guild Wars, and Eve Online, are the best ways of handling PVP in an MMO.    In fact, LOTRO not known for its PVP, is one of the best.    You're given an opportunity to be a monster at level 50 once you make level 10.    This creates an instant enemy but avoids the issues regarding time spent leveling or gearing up breaking fairness. 

The notion that no MMO can ever measure up to your "first love" is bullshit.  I played two MMORPGs before I got into SWG and SWG is the only one I actually miss and want back.  So I guess my third love was the best.

The pure and simple truth is that if I think a game sucks I won't play it.  Every MMO since SWG has sucked.  The only one which has come even remotely close is EVE but after Jump to Lightspeed I laugh at