General Discussion

And a thought sprang to mind.  The problem isn't the UI, or the structure of the game...

What made UO was...there was no levels!  Think about it, the problem with MMO's these days is, levels.  The system in UO was so open ended and good that you could be anything you wanted at any time.  You want to be a tank-mage?  Great, that'll be probably a day or so of macroing.  Want to be a crafter?  That's a little tougher, but still completely doable.  Want to be a thief/assassin?  Again amazingly easy with training dummies.  When Everquest added the D&D class/level doctrine into the MMO genre, it was both a boon and a curse.

Perhaps that is part of the problem.  D&D was never meant to be used in a living, breathing, world.  It was designed around linear quests for a small group of friends to roleplay. 

I think levels are a bit of a problem in MMOs, although I also like gaining levels and gaining power... and let's face it, a little skill tick is no where near as exciting as gaining a level. I think a solution would be just to make levels not as extreme, meaning they don't have as great of an effect as they do in pretty much all MMOs right now. So, for instance, a level 10 player would still have a decent chance of defeating a level 40 player. Just make levels small increases in power.

To me, it seems something like an oblivion leveling system would work pretty well for a MMO.

Another thought as I was re-reading this.  The concept is still out there, and is doing well with EVE.  They seem to be running with it, not doing amazing...but respectable.  I think if a few big to moderate-name MMO's came out with this concept,  (I know I'll hear people's eyes roll from around the globe but) and in a fantasy setting.  It might actually set a standard, and make the genre interesting again.  Instead of stale and stagnant.

Originally posted by TsukieU

Another thought as I was re-reading this.  The concept is still out there, and is doing well with EVE.  They seem to be running with it, not doing amazing...but respectable.  I think if a few big to moderate-name MMO's came out with this concept,  (I know I'll hear people's eyes roll from around the globe but) and in a fantasy setting.  It might actually set a standard, and make the genre interesting again.  Instead of stale and stagnant.

Here's the problem.  Imagine you are a software development company and you want to create an MMO.  You really don't care whether the game has levels or not, but you want to make sure your game appeals to as many people as possible.  You look at a game with levels like WoW and see it has 10 million subscribers and then you look at a game like EvE that has less than half a million.  Which one seems like more people are inclined to play?  And it's not just EvE, even though games like UO did fairly well, they never had anywhere near the number of subscriptions that WoW has had. 

Now maybe the fact that WoW has 10 million subs has NOTHING to do with it having levels and EvE's subs may have NOTHING to do with it not having levels, but can you be sure?  If you are a software development company are you willing to take the chance that perhaps the majority of players like the grind or at the very least they like it more than not having the grind?  Most aren't willing to take that risk.  The fact of the matter is until someone has the guts to take the risk and creates a sandbox game that gets at least a million or so subs, software developers are going to be hesitant to try.

Y'know I don't think it's just the class system but the balancing system too. Then again that's probably the same thing. >.>

Originally posted by TsukieU

And a thought sprang to mind.  The problem isn't the UI, or the structure of the game...

What made UO was...there was no levels!  Think about it, the problem with MMO's these days is, levels.  The system in UO was so open ended and good that you could be anything you wanted at any time.  You want to be a tank-mage?  Great, that'll be probably a day or so of macroing.  Want to be a crafter?  That's a little tougher, but still completely doable.  Want to be a thief/assassin?  Again amazingly easy with training dummies.  When Everquest added the D&D class/level doctrine into the MMO genre, it was both a boon and a curse.

I am a level 5 fighter.

I have sword swinging at skill level 5.

What's the difference?

Why would I pay a monthly fee to macro? The computer is playing the game, not me. Why do I want to pay a fee, so two computers can play each other, while I watch TV?

The only reason WoW got so popular was most PC gamers new what Warcraft was an other good games blizz made. and they did alot of tv adds for WoW so even people who never knew of mmo's thought hey thats cool, i'll try it.... i rarely ever see a TV add for mmo's. it being popular has nothing to do with it being level based. a skill based game could be just as successful if a company put some effort into it and maybe drop an add or two on tv or something so more poeple can be exposed to it rather just relying on word of mouth or sites like this. not everyone goes to game/fourm sites. hell i been doing mmo's for 10+ years and i only recently been comming to sites like this (like last 2 years). sure hard core gamers might know about every game thats comming out but for most of the casual people they dont know about or care enough to stay on the heals of the industry.

take AoC for example.. they have.. err what.. 200k subs? I have never seen a TV add for it. i bet if they did do a few TV adds the sub rate would shoot up. even most of the people i talk to who do play mmo's have never even heard of AoC.  see my point?

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Originally posted by Pappy13

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Originally posted by TsukieU

Another thought as I was re-reading this.  The concept is still out there, and is doing well with EVE.  They seem to be running with it, not doing amazing...but respectable.  I think if a few big to moderate-name MMO's came out with this concept,  (I know I'll hear people's eyes roll from around the globe but) and in a fantasy setting.  It might actually set a standard, and make the genre interesting again.  Instead of stale and stagnant.

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Here's the problem.  Imagine you are a software development company and you want to create an MMO.  You really don't care whether the game has levels or not, but you want to make sure your game appeals to as many people as possible.  You look at a game with levels like WoW and see it has 10 million subscribers and then you look at a game like EvE that has less than half a million.  Which one seems like more people are inclined to play?  And it's not just EvE, even though games like UO did fairly well, they never had anywhere near the number of subscriptions that WoW has had. 
Now maybe the fact that WoW has 10 million subs has NOTHING to do with it having levels and EvE's subs may have NOTHING to do with it not having levels, but can you be sure?  If you are a software development company are you willing to take the chance that perhaps the majority of players like the grind or at the very least they like it more than not having the grind?  Most aren't willing to take that risk.  The fact of the matter is until someone has the guts to take the risk and creates a sandbox game that gets at least a million or so subs, software developers are going to be hesitant to try.

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And this is the type of thinking that stops folks from actually developing anything new. WoW got the packaging right and it was a perfect storm of economics, VCs and devs need to get that through their thickskulls, they're not going to recreate it unless they recreate the 2004/5 market conditions (especially in hardware prices). It's time to lower overhead costs of MMO development by using existing software licenses, look at the core mechanics and even replace them in whole, and stop paying through the nose for mediocre dev leads (e.g. Richard Garriott).


-- Brede