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Thunderous 6/19/08 12:12:27 PM
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Elite Member
Joined: 2/28/08 |
Originally posted by Zorndorf
Yep: all "in development" :)). or to use your own words : one of them even ".... appears (sic) to be very much in a playable form". Others are rated as (possible investment scams or very early... (meaning on paper).) meanwhile reread what I said about a game with just a few new loose elements of sandbox and see HOW it impacted its gameplay.
You are simply wrong. There have been games in the past that allowed a lot more than 100 players in a given area and didn't crash the server. AoC suffers from high graphical demands. AoC (which I play) resembles NOTHING of a sandbox. If you had played UO or Pre-CU SWG, you would know the difference. |
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musicmann 6/19/08 12:37:47 PM
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Elite Member
Joined: 12/25/05 |
28 pages and still going, lol. The simple truth of the matter is that, people have differances of opinion. The few who think that games like WOW and AOC are sandbox mmo's really believe that and no matter how much back and forth analyzing will change that. It would be like a far left Dem trying to change the most conservative Rep, just won't happen. The few here that seem to have their opinion so far on the opposite side from all others are the type of people that are from the same mold as the ones who still play SW NGE and try and convience others that the game population is still thriving and healthy. WOW is rot on the brain and if your a deeply entrenched fanboi, no matter what anyone says, they see it as their lord and savor. |
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zantax 6/19/08 12:38:31 PM
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Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/11/05 |
Originally posted by Zorndorf
Zorndorf, I have read alot of this thread and I must say your points are like looking at medow through a forest of Trees. You have only ever scratched the surface of what a true "Sandbox MMORPG" is, for further description go back to I think page 26 of this post and read my post. You really don't know what your talking about I hate to say it, you either: a) are just messing around trying to tick people off hence your a troll b) Really believe this crap that you are posting and don't know any better c) your a moron that has no idea what he is talking about. Well to me I think you fall in to the b category, so why don't you sign up for more games then WOW, and see what real MMO's are like. EQ is still around do there free trial, why not try Asheron's Call out, even Second Life and EVE. Don't put in 2 hours on each, finish the trials and play them as much as you played WOW. If by the end of that you still don't understand then I guess you can stick to your Linear based MMO's. For the rest of us we have played most of these games and fully understand the evolution of MMO's today and if you start saying AOC or WOW are the pinicale of MMO's then I feel very sad for the imagination of todays youths. I was only in final Beta for AOC and I can say that game was definatly not a "Sandbox", I played WOW from Beta for about a year and I know that game is not a "Sandbox". You are right on one thing though, every MMO out has "Sandbox" elements in it in some way shape or form, except for 1. That is right there is only 1 true full blown "Sandbox MMORPG" out there right now, and its name is Second Life. Unfortunatly I don't qualify it as a game at all though because there is nothing to strive for at all, and that is why I don't play it. Entertainment factor of a game means that there has to be something to strive for a goal at some point. That is the first step back into a Linear MMO, and that step is shown in EVE. Eve is the closest thing to a True "Sandbox MMORPG" that we have out on the market, the only problem as I have stated in a previous thread is the skill system, it is a linear based learning curve, this moves it away from a "Sandbox MMORPG". Now I have gone through this all before so I will address a different part of this post, your statement, "Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems"." Many MANY games have allowed more then 100 people into one zone for an event or PvP battle, Funcom has even had this issue before, anyone remember the Open Beta for Anarchy Online? The point I am making is back in the day with Asheron's Call I can remember 200 or more easy people all battling it out on the PvP server right at the newb login areas. I mean it was mass chaos. Back then that game was not state of the art but it pushed your machine, and they were able to do it no problem, so why haven't companies like Funcom learned from others on how to do things like no instancing properly? Anyways another issue your doing is comparing WOW to "Sandbox" by saying "At end game" Whoa right there, we are not talking End game to begin with. We are talking the game as a whole, not just one portion of the game. Besides even WOW's End game is not a "Sandbox" you are still pigoen holed into a class, and 1 of 3 talent trees or a mixture. Not to mention some people won't even allow you into there Raids if your not a specific talent spec. Your progression at End game is to find better gear that is it, and the fact that there is an "end game" is another issue with WOW not being a Sandbox. Let me ask you this, can you be effective logging in for the first time and getting invited into an Onyxia Raid? No you can't it just disqualified itself as a "Sandbox MMORPG" right there, but 1 or 2 elements of "Sandbox" are there. You can pick a direction and start running right from login, will you get far probably not but it is your choice to do that. Do you have to quest at all in the game, no you don't that is your choice. That is where the "Sandbox" Title ends with WOW, the rest of the game is a Linear Spoon Feed Game no different then the RPG's of old like "Pools of Radiance" The only difference is there is a chat engine to converse with others. |
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musicmann 6/19/08 12:46:12 PM
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Elite Member
Joined: 12/25/05 |
Originally posted by zantax
Zorndorf, I have read alot of this thread and I must say your points are like looking at medow through a forest of Trees. You have only ever scratched the surface of what a true "Sandbox MMORPG" is, for further description go back to I think page 26 of this post and read my post. You really don't know what your talking about I hate to say it, you either: a) are just messing around trying to tick people off hence your a troll b) Really believe this crap that you are posting and don't know any better c) your a moron that has no idea what he is talking about. Well to me I think you fall in to the b category, so why don't you sign up for more games then WOW, and see what real MMO's are like. EQ is still around do there free trial, why not try Asheron's Call out, even Second Life and EVE. Don't put in 2 hours on each, finish the trials and play them as much as you played WOW. If by the end of that you still don't understand then I guess you can stick to your Linear based MMO's. For the rest of us we have played most of these games and fully understand the evolution of MMO's today and if you start saying AOC or WOW are the pinicale of MMO's then I feel very sad for the imagination of todays youths. I was only in final Beta for AOC and I can say that game was definatly not a "Sandbox", I played WOW from Beta for about a year and I know that game is not a "Sandbox". You are right on one thing though, every MMO out has "Sandbox" elements in it in some way shape or form, except for 1. That is right there is only 1 true full blown "Sandbox MMORPG" out there right now, and its name is Second Life. Unfortunatly I don't qualify it as a game at all though because there is nothing to strive for at all, and that is why I don't play it. Entertainment factor of a game means that there has to be something to strive for a goal at some point. That is the first step back into a Linear MMO, and that step is shown in EVE. Eve is the closest thing to a True "Sandbox MMORPG" that we have out on the market, the only problem as I have stated in a previous thread is the skill system, it is a linear based learning curve, this moves it away from a "Sandbox MMORPG". Now I have gone through this all before so I will address a different part of this post, your statement, "Look at Conan TODAY on these forums: they finally found out now that in allowing 100 people to ONE zone made the game not even playable. Immens FPS drops of course due to the laughable data manipulations needed to annimate the thing in the "sandboxes of siege sytems"." Many MANY games have allowed more then 100 people into one zone for an event or PvP battle, Funcom has even had this issue before, anyone remember the Open Beta for Anarchy Online? The point I am making is back in the day with Asheron's Call I can remember 200 or more easy people all battling it out on the PvP server right at the newb login areas. I mean it was mass chaos. Back then that game was not state of the art but it pushed your machine, and they were able to do it no problem, so why haven't companies like Funcom learned from others on how to do things like no instancing properly? Anyways another issue your doing is comparing WOW to "Sandbox" by saying "At end game" Whoa right there, we are not talking End game to begin with. We are talking the game as a whole, not just one portion of the game. Besides even WOW's End game is not a "Sandbox" you are still pigoen holed into a class, and 1 of 3 talent trees or a mixture. Not to mention some people won't even allow you into there Raids if your not a specific talent spec. Your progression at End game is to find better gear that is it, and the fact that there is an "end game" is another issue with WOW not being a Sandbox. Let me ask you this, can you be effective logging in for the first time and getting invited into an Onyxia Raid? No you can't it just disqualified itself as a "Sandbox MMORPG" right there, but 1 or 2 elements of "Sandbox" are there. You can pick a direction and start running right from login, will you get far probably not but it is your choice to do that. Do you have to quest at all in the game, no you don't that is your choice. That is where the "Sandbox" Title ends with WOW, the rest of the game is a Linear Spoon Feed Game no different then the RPG's of old like "Pools of Radiance" The only difference is there is a chat engine to converse with others.
But he can make helicopters and sell them on the auction house. What do you mean, that's not sandbox? LOL! |
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singsofdeath 6/19/08 12:52:31 PM
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Elite Member
Joined: 1/28/06
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." |
All right. This is gonna be a lengthy post. I promised myself to write this down in case this thread was still going strong after I got up today, so here goes.
A comparison between the Sandbox-elements in one of the games considered very close to Sandbox-ideal and the supposed Sandbox-elements Mr. Zorndorf likes to bring up in his post:
The story begins with EVE Online. Once upon a time, two Alliances were in a Major conflict against each other. They had for a time managed to leave each other alone, but the politics and the rapid expansion of one of those Alliances, plus a sense of "idealism" of the other Alliance made them eventuall clash in battle. They fought and fought for control of systems, to drive their enemies out of newly acquired space. We shall call the Alliances Northern Alliance and Southern Alliance in the remainder of this story.
Now, once upon a time in World of Warcraft. Two factions that have been at War for a long time have entered an uneasy truce due to a common threat that was only recently ended. The Burning Legion is however still a very present threat, evidence of which can be seen in the Shattered Lands. The Truce then, remains, but skirmishes continue to break out. Horde and Alliance fight for control of Valleys, Gulches and Basins. However no matter how often the armies of the two factions clash, they can never manage to actually take one of the supposedly critical places over which they continually fight.
Back in EVE, the war between the two Alliances is reaching an all time high. battles are fought almost on a day to day basis, ranging from small skirmishes with 5 ships on each side to invasion fleets numbering in the 300eds trying to lay waste to the Stations and Structures of each other. Battles remain inconclusive howver. For each won, another is lost. For each push of the Northern Alliance, the Southern counters. The Diplomats of both Alliances are working overtime, trying to gain allies in their fight. Eventually, more an more smaller Alliances join the Norther Alliance. A slight shift of power and thus, a slightly favorable shift in victories can be noticed. The NA manages some decisive victories, driving the SA from a few key systems and now staging attacks into the -home- systems of the SA.
Back in WoW. As countless undecisive battles are fought, other options open up and more importantly, other developments in the course of the World. The Sunwell is to be cleansed. The heroes of the World set out to do it and, in a huge, joint effort, over time, they manage it. Their enemy never stood a chance. The heroes kept coming and coming until at long last, the Sunwell was cleansed, the mission accomplished. The two sides congratulated each other, patted each other on the back...and then went back to fight the battles that could, for the life of them, not be decided.
In EVE, the SA has secretly been preparing to build and launch another Titan, the hugest ships to ever prowl the SPace-lanes. Gargantuan in size, they are a huge effort to build and only a handful of Alliances have the capability to do so. For it to succeed, you need a powerful -INDUSTRIAL- backbone in the Alliance. Hundreds of player-built stations, havesting materials and refining them into materials with which still other characters can start producing the parts. And not just of the ship, a Spacedock for these kinds of ships must first be built and -then- you could think about actually building such a monster. Billions and billions of currency flowed into the construction of it, an effort only made possible by the co-operation of hundreds and hundreds of players. The Production had been started in secret, but, close to the actual finishing of the project, spies from the NA managed to find out details about said project. Needless to say, the Northern Alliance was not pleased with this development.
In WoW, one of the most seasoned crafters in the World decides to craft -the- ultimate Weapon, hoping that by doing this, he might stand a better chance at fighting in the ever indecisive battle. He is not secretive about it. He starts gathering the materials, flying through the Shattered Lands on his trusted Epic Mount, locating spots of minerals and enemies whom he knows have the ingredients he needs. By himself he gathers the first parts of the weapon. Eventually, he realizes that for some of the ingredients, he must venture into the deeper, darker places of the world, so he asks in his Guild of trusted people. Sure, they take him along. He spends some of his DKP on the next Black Temple runs to gain the Essences he needs. The materials are complete, the crafting can begin....and is done. With the newly crafted weapon in hand, the Master Smith and Famed Warrior returns to the battles...not to make a difference.
The Northern Alliance sets plans into motion, quickly made plans to assemble one of the largest fleets yet, two Fleets actually, one comprised of smaller ships, the other of the larger Capital Ships to assault the Space-Dock in which the Titan is -known- to be built. Fleet move to rendezvous with each other and slowly, the juggernaut sets itself into motion, aiming for a strike into the heart of the SA. Noteably, the NA can only even manage such a strike because they already have -one- of the gigantic Titan ships, capable of launching fleets through self-generated Jump-Portals. The addition of -another- Titan to the enemies Forces it to be prevented at all costs! And then, the attack commences. Having recently secured the additional help from a Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance awaits the Northern Alliance in the System of the attack. The Northern Alliance is hellbent on destroying the Spaceyard, that is the only goal. All costs are acceptable if this one thing is achieved. The Dreadnoughts, Motherships and Carriers unload their deadly potential while the defenders assembled fleet begins to strike back. A huge battle (and lagfest XD) ensues. The Southern Alliance kills capital ship after capital ship while the Northern Alliance continues to fire upon the Space-dock.
In the end, the Northern Alliance -wins- the day. They manage to destroy the Spacedock, albeit at huge losses of ships, the worth of which numbers in the billions alone. And only a few hours later, the Southern Alliance announces that the whole thing had been a setup. That the Station the Northerners attacked had not been harboring a Titan, that they had purposefully planted this information to weaken the Northern Alliances Capital Fleet considerably. That they had done. With so many losses and no ability to replace them -that- quickly, plus the loss of morale due to the setup, the Northern Alliance is pushed out of SA space and pushed back. Together with the Mercenary Alliance, the Southern Alliance takes System after system from the invaders. The Northern Alliance eventually breaks apart, disbands, scatters and the territories are divided among the victorious.
In WoW, the battles between the two major Factions have still not changed the balance of power at all. Rumors have it that there will soon be a new area to be skirmished over. Not just with Swords and magic, but with Sieging Weapons. The warriors of both sides prepare themselves, while waiting for the next possibility to "change" the world in a group effort.
---------------- So...there you have it. The events in EVE Online are described from my personal experience (they may be somewhat biased and some information may be seen differently by others, such as the NA attack on the Shipyard, but I think the point gets across). I have -personally- witnessed this huge shifts in Power in the EVE Universe. An Alliance of thousands of players being driven back and eventually shattered by the concentrated efforts of another group in the game, which thereby gained more territory and a lot more hatred from other Alliances. XD
WoW is not any special example. It is what you do in the game. I know it. I've played it, complete with the Burning Crusade AddOn. I may not have raided, but I have several friends who do.
Now I know some people are a lost cause, but I hope this helps to illustrate a little bit why some people -might- consider EVE a much more -sandboxy- game and WoW not sandbox at all.
Cheers! |
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mhollisjr 6/19/08 2:12:07 PM
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