General Discussion

Dungeons & Dragons is considered by many to be the forefather of the modern-day MMO. With the recent release of Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition, we are seeing evidence that new Dungeons and Dragons design is being informed by MMOs. In this article, Managing Editor Jon Wood discusses some of the specific elements of the new edition that draw in elements of our genre of video game.

There is little doubt that Dungeons and Dragons (and other early pen and paper games) helped to pave the way for the MMORPG genre. So much so that when co-creator Gary Gygax passed away, many MMORPGers mourned the loss.

It has always been easy to look at MMOs (and all RPGs, really) and find the influences that pen and paper game like Dungeons and Dragons (DnD) have had on them, but the most recent edition of the popular tabletop game turns all of that on its ear. It seems that the student had become the teacher, the circle of life is complete, and a number of other clichés that I could use to say that the recently released 4th edition of Dungeons and Dragons looks less like the template for MMORPGs and more like a product of them.

Whether Wizards of the Coast (the current developers of Dungeons and Dragons) designed this new edition of the game to be more appealing to the MMORPG gamer crowd or whether it is simply being informed by a popular game type difficult to say, but there are a number of parallels that should be explored:

Read the article here.

While I can agree that some MMORPG features add to the overall gameplay of PnP RPGs, it is said to see the most important part of a PnP RPG-- the actually Role-Playing -- fall to the side just like in MMORPGs today.

That is why I like the virtual game table.  You have all the tools you need to play a focused, story-driven campaign with a DM and players.  MMOs haven't been able to foster this environment so Wizards is being smart with their online offering.

The only thing that's learned is the generation gap in gaming.

D&D 3E opened up a whole ton of opprotunity and options for the D&D community to explore, and it explored it well. A great base system that was open to fan made creations to explore the possibilities of character. A detailed system for skills and cross classing that allowed people to develop the heroes they want to play -- both in story and in statistics.

4E, while I accept its existence and own the books, reminds me that the "new wave" of gamers come from a different background than we grew up with. We were the generation that lived off Nintendo and Text Based Games for the longest time, grew up with 2D sprites and slow dial up connections.

Even when we played the graphical games, to a degree we had to use our imaginations.

And we loved to tinker, loved to explore, love to mod.

Today, the kids have everything on demand, graphics that leave nothing to the imagination, and game systems that are more about balance and progression tracks than customization and exploration of development and styles.

Remember the games that had useless classes that were fun to role play? Now, everyone of equal level is capable and balanced with their tiered skill trees to be equally effective. The "Role" in Role Play is no longer the character, the story, and the involvement.....it's merely your position on the team. Who cares if you're the dragon-blooded prince of a fallen kingdom; do you know how to tank and hold aggro? That scholarly man over there, who's traveled the world and seen so many things and read so many lores-- they don't care about that, they need to know if he can stay back and heal or if he's spec'd for DoT/DPS.

This isn't a total bash on 4E....it's me feeling old all of a sudden.

Except there isn't an online offering.  And by making the game more MMO friendly its dumbed down for WoW kiddies.

One thing a lot of people are forgetting as they rush to make snarky criticisms of the new edition -- these are  just the core rulebooks.

These books are meant only as a foundation, the bare basics you need in order to be able to play the game.  If you tried to play D&D using ONLY the core rulebooks of any previous edition, you might be surprised at how shallow the game would feel.

Yes, there's no question that some things have been left out of the 4E core rulebooks that were considered "basic" in previous editions, but I would argue that maybe the previous editions tried to cover a bit too much in their PH and DMG.  I can think of a lot of things in there that are NOT needed and that my groups never used.

In particular, a lot of the complaints about role-playing and flavor seem silly to me.  These things are best covered by house rules anyway.  If you absolutely cannot wait for a supplement to cover the rules you need, just use the old rules you already know and love.  Why is that so hard?

If your group is inclined to roleplay, then roleplay is going to happen.  If your players are the kind who like to create elaborate character histories, then that is what they are going to do.  No amount of text included in (or left out of) a rulebook can change any of that.

9 out of 10 MMO gamers probably haven't played and never will play PnP. Gearing PnP rules toward MMO guidelines is stupid. Make a separate ruleset for that stuff.

Originally posted by Hexxeity

One thing a lot of people are forgetting as they rush to make snarky criticisms of the new edition -- these are  just the core rulebooks.

These books are meant only as a foundation, the bare basics you need in order to be able to play the game.  If you tried to play D&D using ONLY the core rulebooks of any previous edition, you might be surprised at how shallow the game would feel.

Yes, there's no question that some things have been left out of the 4E core rulebooks that were considered "basic" in previous editions, but I would argue that maybe the previous editions tried to cover a bit too much in their PH and DMG.  I can think of a lot of things in there that are NOT needed and that my groups never used.

In particular, a lot of the complaints about role-playing and flavor seem silly to me.  These things are best covered by house rules anyway.  If you absolutely cannot wait for a supplement to cover the rules you need, just use the old rules you already know and love.  Why is that so hard?

If your group is inclined to roleplay, then roleplay is going to happen.  If your players are the kind who like to create elaborate character histories, then that is what they are going to do.  No amount of text included in (or left out of) a rulebook can change any of that.

I should start this response by saying that I'm really personally enjoying the new rules.

That being said, I think that what you said about roleplaying is valid, but I have a number of members of my group who have voiced this concern to me. It's as though a lack of rules in the core rulebooks invalidates the form of nuanced character that they are able to build without resorting to house rules.

The great thing about DnD is that house rules can fix just about any gripe people may have with the game. The point though, is that there seems to be a trend toward steamlining the fine details away (in terms of the core rulebooks).

I also want to say that from a personal perspective, as far as rules of that nature go, I'm not likley to pay them nearly as much heed if they're in a later-released supplement. I don't want to have to go back after new rules are made and suddenly have my character know things (statistically speaking) that he didn't know before.

It's all personal preference in the ned and all this article really analyzes is the rules as they are presented in the PHB.

Originally posted by Hexxeity

One thing a lot of people are forgetting as they rush to make snarky criticisms of the new edition -- these are  just the core rulebooks.

These books are meant only as a foundation, the bare basics you need in order to be able to play the game.  If you tried to play D&D using ONLY the core rulebooks of any previous edition, you might be surprised at how shallow the game would feel.

Yes, there's no question that some things have been left out of the 4E core rulebooks that were considered "basic" in previous editions, but I would argue that maybe the previous editions tried to cover a bit too much in their PH and DMG.  I can think of a lot of things in there that are NOT needed and that my groups never used.

In particular, a lot of the complaints about role-playing and flavor seem silly to me.  These things are best covered by house rules anyway.  If you absolutely cannot wait for a supplement to cover the rules you need, just use the old rules you already know and love.  Why is that so hard?

If your group is inclined to roleplay, then roleplay is going to happen.  If your players are the kind who like to create elaborate character histories, then that is what they are going to do.  No amount of text included in (or left out of) a rulebook can change any of that.

QFT.   I think there is just the right amount of roleplaying information that should have been added to the manuals.  I chuckle everything I read people freaking out because they excepted the book to spend chapter after chapter telling you how to use your imagination.    Not rocket science here you know.  Personally I like the 4E rules and have enjoyed reading over them since I picked up on release day.  

And to those that cry about the game being geared too much towards minutures or using the D&D Insider deal, get a life, these are just tools to make your life easier.  And if you don't want to buy the official minitures use coins or whatever.   After all the game is about imagination right?

Are there MMO elements with D&D 4e that were not there in prior editions including the 3.5 reboot?  Sure.  Is this a bad thing if the product will start appealing to a wider audience?   I