General Discussion

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Originally posted by Josher

Eve on the other hand had a terrible launch but people who play that game are far more tolerant than the average gamer.   CCP got away with things other developers would've been raked over the coals for.  Then again, its playerbase just doesn't care all that much for how well it plays.  Exploits for example are considered gameplay, where in other games, they would just be considered exploits.  You can consider that good or bad.

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Eve gets aways with it because it's an evil game. Anyone wanting to play a good character there will be in a v-e-r-y bad situation. Evil games, require evil rules, and the evilest players to play it. Evil loves evil, so if even CCP is evil, it'll be tolerated. The "end game" there is to make 90% of the world hate you forever for not only taking their space, sneaking in to rob their capitals and more. (Bwhahahahaha).

But most gamers don't take playing evil that seriously. They play their necromancer for a couple hours; switch to their Pally to play the remaining hours. They want some framework of law and order, not chaos.

Originally posted by Kyntor

Maybe it is time for a change in the model.  Currently, most MMORPGs in development employs a model that includes:  alpha, closed beta, stress test, open beta, and launch.

The developers could begin to include a new step in the process called "early access."  Early access would take the place of the early launches that some companys are forced to take for financial reasons.  While those who choose to participate in early access would be required to purchase the game, they would only be required to pay a fraction of the monthly payment.  Once a game has been debugged, polished, and the performance is where it needs to be, the company can officially launch the game and start charging the full monthly fee.

However, early access probably need to be limited to a period of no longer than 3 months or some companies will take advantage of it.

 

I would like this model because I don't think that any MMO company can really understand how there game will run with 300k people logging on in the first week.  If they were honest and said that they need 4-6 weeks of polish and for the first 100k people signing on they get 2 months free instead of one due to this period. 

Gamers / users of any system are patient enough if they tell the truth.  I even read an article today from AoC stating that they left a lot out of the launch because they felt it wasnt good enough.  60 more missions will get voice overs and they will bring in the fugitive system and a ton of new missions.  All of which was meant to be in the launch.  Ok they didn't want to release below par content but they should really discuss that with the users and compensate an in game item or something.

The big issue with software launches is that every week that goes by the work you did is already being superseded so in some ways when a product launches there will be without doubt missing content and bugs that they will need to fix. 

I think that a lot of people know this instinctively or intuitively.

However there are a couple major details:

1) gamebreaking bugs

2) promising things for years and not delivering at all on them.

Neither of those things are acceptable.  having say 10% of quests bugged is OK.  Nto great but people will just bitch a bit.

Having a major dupe bug that destroys the economy is omsething else entirely.

Claiming to have DX10 implemented and running for over two years.  Promising it  and having customer actually upgrade computers and Operating Systems and then pulling it out 2 days before release.  Is not OK.  That is pure Charlie Brown trying to kick the footbal.

So yes a certain amount of minor to moderate bugs are expected and while they are grumbled about and drama queens act like the world will end the HUGE bugs and flat out lies or hugely broken promises are not.

Yes most software project relases with bugs but very very few release in a state where they do not actually work.  The problem with MMORPGs I suppose is something are not considered "broken" even though they break major parts of the game.  I am sure some deve houses have considered dupe bugs to be like this.  But they are wrong.  oN the other hand 10% of quest being bugged is ok because if you have enough quest players will work around it, sure they grumble but they still keep going.

The fact is you budget your testing around this.  Major bugs must be found.  You also do your marketing based on this.  You can promise big, but you only do it if you are pretty certain its in.  And if it isn't MUST do a major mea culpa.

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Originally posted by Kyntor

Maybe it is time for a change in the model.  Currently, most MMORPGs in development employs a model that includes:  alpha, closed beta, stress test, open beta, and launch.

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Alpha; closed beta; stress test; open beta; launch; production beta. 

I am not eating from the OP 's table!

He's a heavy fan boy of AoC and tries to put up some semi decent arguments why ALL MMORPG's suck at launch.

Well ... they don't.

Not in the way Conan does. About EVERY part of it has very broken elements. Why ?

PUBLISHING on operational servers without having tested new elements in closed beta or open beta is NOT the way other companies work.

Siege systems were NOT tested in closed Beta or open Beta. In fact about all content was not seriously tested except for the first levels.

So... argueing over "well every MMORPG has had its problems" is a very very sad excuse to come back crawling "please like my Conan game".

LOTRO and TBC come to mind. And please the continent of Outland is in content and quests so much bigger than AoC, but I want to include TR also with a MUCH better start of all MMO's launched in the last 1.5 years.

I am VERY hard for the makers of AoC because I think they KNEW exactly what they were doing and still they don't tell the thruth... Even NOW their director says Cona nis the real steak while LOTRO and Wow are "Mac Donalds". An arguement that doesn't even make sense on a fan forum, let alone out of the mouth of a Director of an MMORPG.

So sad people STILL want to justify their purchase. Very sad  indeed ...

I bet Vanguard and Conan were the exception. Most MMORPG's are polished when launched. But not these two. No matter how hard you try OP.

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Originally posted by Acromo

I bet Vanguard and Conan were the exception. Most MMORPG's are polished when launched. But not these two. No matter how hard you try OP.

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Anarchy Online
Hellgate: London

[And I'm sure others can add to the list]

This isn't a "new" or "rare" problem, it's becoming the sad "norm".

Really, it does come down to the fact that enough people have purchased "broken" software in the past that there's no pressure to do it better.  The lack of QA and testing is a common problem but it continues to happen because companies *get away* with it. 

There is a floor to how badly you can suck, tho.  If your game is really incompetent (AC2, Shadowbane) the bandwagon players will crash it as they jump off.  If you are merely mediocre you can usually ride out the rough time to stabilize at a cash flow that's anywhere from disappointing to "hey, we're doing alright" and chug along for a period of time. 

Warcraft is in it's own time zone, of course.

There might be signs that is changing - both Vanguard and Burning Sea released with missing features and many players seem to have taken the idea of planning to play  for only 2-4 months before they spend a dime.  That's what interests me in how Conan's numbers are come Q4 2008 and Warhammer's are 6 months from its release.  If the long-term investment is turning into a minority of players, then the prepaid sub like LotR is going to multiply as companies look to front-load cash as much as they can get away with.  I wonder how that will change the design philosophy, as there is a point of view of not busting yourself if people will pay for less content, but more and better content might lure more people into the maximum front-end purchase.

Sorry to run on but I find the subject fascinating.  Perhaps the simpler version is: People Suck.

I think there are 3 distinct categories here:

- BUGS.  Unforeseen problems, exceptions caused by new hardware etc.

- POLISH.  Things like optimising for all platforms, making sure all the quests are suitable, balance etc.

- FINISHED.  Things like 'not implementing a stats system', 'using mocap animations with different timings that are slower for females'.  You know before release these things aren't finished - but you ship anyway.

In some ways it's like a new house (car analogy sucks):

- there will be some bugs, dodgy windows/bad lawn/leaking sink etc.  It's not great, but expected.
- the builders may or may not have cleaned the windows, fitted the carpets properly, the house next door might look better and have gold-plated taps, the neighbourhood might be filled with yobs.  It's not unexpected.

But if the walls are still lying on the lawn with a lorry load of cement, it's simply unacceptable...

If you're living in the house - how are the builders going to finish the walls? it's going to take far longer (and annoy the hell out of you as they break all your furnishings)  and once they've fixed the walls, you know damn well there's been no polishing and no-one has checked for leaky pipes...

MMOs will be buggy/unpolished, but they sure as hell shouldn't be unfinished!

Originally posted by Acromo

I am not eating from the OP 's table!

He's a heavy fan boy of AoC and tries to put up some semi decent arguments why ALL MMORPG's suck at launch.

Well ... they don't.

Not in the way Conan does. About EVERY part of it has very broken elements. Why ?

PUBLISHING on operational servers without having tested new elements in closed beta or open beta is NOT the way other companies work.

Siege systems were NOT tested in closed Beta or open Beta. In fact about all content was not seriously tested except for the first levels.

So... argueing over "well every MMORPG has had its problems" is a very very sad excuse to come back crawling "please like my Conan game".

LOTRO and TBC come to mind. And please the continent of Outland is in content and quests so much bigger than AoC, but I want to include TR also with a MUCH better start of all MMO's launched in the last 1.5 years.

I am VERY hard for the makers of AoC because I think they KNEW exactly what they were doing and still they don't tell the thruth... Even NOW their director says Cona nis the real steak while LOTRO and Wow are &