Star Wars Galaxies

Blizzard built an EQ style clone plane and simple.  Saying they are responsible for the apathy in the market is just plain wrong.  They built exactly what they set out to do.

The problem is there has been so many failures with the non-EQ clones that there just isn't much incentive to do anything else.  The market is hungry for something else as can be seen by the volume of Conan sales, but people and companies are to gunshy to do anything innovative or dangerous. 

Just because WoW struck paydirt doesn't mean they are responsible for the choices every other company makes with their products.  At some point companies need to be held responsible for their own choices and products and not blaming one company.

Originally posted by Beauman

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by ummax

 

why then in the life I have described which is all about compromise whether you choose to actually compromise or not is the expense of a 15 dollar subscription fee so danged important to a small community of veterans who no longer play the game because they now hate it.  

 

If your credit card was double billed for a months sub would you "compromise" by letting it go?

Or would you do something to remedy that issue?

 

this doens't make sense  so I dont understand

If my credit card is double billed I would call about the mistake BECAUSE its a mistake and get it fixed but its still a choice if that is what your getting at but an obvious one that one makes when a mistake is made.  If the next statement is that your mad at sony cause they double billed you once then okay but does it make sense to scream it from the rooftops for 3 years?

 

I just found it interesting that you would imply that a $15 sub fee is "so danged important" to vets but you'll make an effort to retrieve $15 if it was taken from you.

But that is completely unrelated to this conversation.

You make some interesting points(albeit a little confusing in it's delivery). But the thing that I'd like to point out from all of this is that compromise, on the part of gamers, is apathy - and apathy is destroying this industry for everyone who wants more out of their online experiences.

Some things we have to make compromises on as it affects our lives in profound ways. As so many have pointed out this is just a game - and not compromising on this shouldn't have a profound affect on our lives.

Rather it should have a profound affect on the industry.

 

You are right, apathy is deteriorating the MMO industry.  But it isn't an apathy due to SOE, but more accurately due to Blizzard.

World of Warcraft was such a lighting-in-a-bottle one time hit, that now nearly every game development company wants to duplicate it.  Nevermind that doing such is akin to the studios trying to mimick Star Wars in the late 1970's and early 1980's, all of which ended in disaster.  Lighting-in-a-bottle is just that.

Companies that try to go further away from such an engine, like AoC or POTBS, run into a host of problems.  I feel one reason for this is that too many gamers make automatic comparisons to WoW, for any new game that comes out.  Think that is false, look at the Game X vs WoW threads that flood the gaming sites and forums whenever a new game is announced.

The problem with SWG, even the current state, is that despite being a far cry from what the Vets enjoyed in the Pre-CU era, for many it is still a better game than what is out there right now.  Obviously, if they felt that AoC, PoTBS, CoH, WoW, LoTRO, and et cetera were better, then they would be there.

Are returning Vets happy that SOE took away the original game?  I seriously doubt it.  Are they willing, though, to pay for the current SWG- which at least they still garner some enjoyment from- as opposed to playing a game they don't care for at all?  Obviously, the answer is yes, for them.

Is that rewarding bad behavior, questionable business tactics, or whatver else you want to call it?  To you and some others, sure.  For them, no it isn't.  For them it's about playing a game they still enjoy (be it less than before in some cases) versus playing a game they don't enjoy at all (obviously the other MMOs out there).

And not everyone wants to go without playing a MMO.  For example, I don't play off-line or console games.  When I am at home, don't feel like going out or reading, or the wife is out with her girlfriends . . . I log-in to my MMO of choice.  Of course, I don't enjoy the current Star Wars and don't sub to it.  I'm playing Pirates of the Carribean Online after tiring of CoH and WoW (and I think AoC is crap), as I await the 2 week trial for PoTBS.

But, I still understand where they are coming from.

here is the thing times change and so do "styles".   I love sandbox games but we know that they dont sell well.  So an attempt was made I guess to remove some of the sandbox from the game.    I can't force a company not any company on this planet to create a game for a minority playerbase.   Money gets tight (it can be seen when we see things like lucas arts laying people off).     I can't force a company to make the old swg or bring it back but I can have fun with what is presented to me now.    Once upon a time coke came in glass bottles and the sizes of various package were twice the size of what they are now like say potatoe chips etc.   The consumer can kick and scream and demand the glass bottles and the larger bags of potatoe chips but these silent nerfs occured due to a financial bottom line in some ivory tower.   I want the chips and the coke (i'm a coke addict.. ..) so i guy the coke that is presented to me in the cans even though i really liked glass.   Then there is those plastic bottles omg I hate those.  

So now WoW is created and SWG and various other games.   The create them to accomodate the majorty and not a minority.   I hated wow because of the style and the fact that I hit a wall at the level cap and there was no content.  I used WoW up in about 3 months after its release and its the only game that i have never opened up again to play a year later when new stuff is introduced.   All the yammering in the world from a smaller player base wont change the fact that they are going to make something that they can afford to make and that will please the largest number of players.    Its like PVP and PVE.  PVE sells because its more popular so games that are successful have a large amount of pve in them.   Casual gamers are on the rise so content is added for that group.    

So I look at the titles presented and if my choices are to play the game I think is the best then obviously I"m going to play that.   I"m not going to play a game I hate and I"m not going to not play a game because some guy had a bad experience.  I will judge for myself.   I dont discount what happened to people but the fact of the matter is that it didn't happen to me and I had no real issue with what they did other then they changed my product and so i made a decision to leave for a long time.   Its not the first product I have had changed and downsized etc and it wont be the last.  

lastly I love the token comment about me marketing for SOE.    Anything that is not hatred is seen as 'viral marketing".  I dont care if you play or the other guy plays i have my fun.  What I do care about is seeing some guy post his thoughts and being accused of working for SOE and being a marketer and then being told what a dolt he is for playing it.    Bottom line hate SOE you like and hate SWG all you like as your entitled to hate and not like stuff just I think a lot of us wish that they would not throw the hate our way jsut cause we post on a forum with a bunch of guys.    Its when its thrown my way that I can't help but think OMG get over it already and move on and stop making the same old tired accusations and comments over and over again about me, my intelilgence level and marketting for sony.  

 The last game I tried was POTBS I found it terrible.  At that time my SWG account was closed. I opened it as a result of having round not a single game that I liked.  I found POTBS to be very linear and I am not a huge pvp fan and so found that game obviously not to my liking.     I didn't compare POTBS to WoW actualy I compared it to SWG.   All I could think of is if people hate SWG for what it is now and its a better product I wonder where in this linup of games POTBS falls as to me it falls way beyond the minimum specs I want in a new game.  SWG had more stuff to do and presented to me a large world which was more diverse.  I returned to SWG as a result of having tried most of the new releases (didn't bother with AOC it reminded me of WoW).   Coincidentaly the last new game I tried was POTBS and it was the game that made me decide that I would stick with SWG as right now its much more fun and well I want to have fun.   POTBS will probably fall into that pile with WoW of games I never pick up again because for me it was a god aweful game..

Originally posted by Daffid011

Blizzard built an EQ style clone plane and simple.  Saying they are responsible for the apathy in the market is just plain wrong.  They built exactly what they set out to do.

The problem is there has been so many failures with the non-EQ clones that there just isn't much incentive to do anything else.  The market is hungry for something else as can be seen by the volume of Conan sales, but people and companies are to gunshy to do anything innovative or dangerous. 

Just because WoW struck paydirt doesn't mean they are responsible for the choices every other company makes with their products.  At some point companies need to be held responsible for their own choices and products and not blaming one company.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with the MMO market is that Blizzard made the penultimate DIKU MUD MMO, and everyone else is thinking they can have similar success by making something similar.  WoW is beyond the MMO, it is a cultural phenomenon.  People who don't play video games know what Wow is.  It has been featured on several television shows.

The next big hit, which won't likely be anywhere near as big a WoW, has a much better chance of comming from the UO/original SWG mold, but it will need to have all the content that UO and SWG were supposed to have but never got.  Both UO and SWG were intended to have quests and storylines.  The fact is, the developers left out half the game and then took off in a different direction before ever trying to add the missing half.  Who knows how well either game would have done if they had ever been finished n a form that actually resembled their original concepts?  Sadly, pretty much every company looks at them and judges them without taking into account that neither game was ever actually finished close to their original concept.  Sandboxes and content are not an either/or proposition.  Unfortunately, the only two major ones scrapped the content to make release, and never went back to add it before their core games were altered to the point where they don't resemble what they once were, or what they were intended to be.

For what UO should have been, read these:

www.raphkoster.com/2006/06/03/uos-resource-system/

www.raphkoster.com/2006/06/04/uos-resource-system-part-2/

www.raphkoster.com/2006/06/05/uos-resource-system-part-3/

For anyone who followed UO during its development, you might remember the idea of dragons invading towns to feed from a couple interviews.  Those links explain what the actual system was intended to be, and the reason why it never happened.  Unfortunately, the developers never made any attempt to replace it (or at least none that was successful enough to make the love game).

SWG was intended to have actual quests and other directed content, along with tools to allow the players to make their own directed content for other players (the storyteller system).  Unfortunately, the tools weren't fully implemented until the core game was ruined to the point where the game is no longer wrth the effort to play it, nor is it worth the space it takes up on a hard drive (save for a certian flightless bird).

Anyway, a successful, meaning finished (which includes content beyond regrinding skills), sandbox game has yet to be released.  Until one is, nobody can honestly judge the potential sandbox games have in the MMO marketplace.

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by Suvroc

Originally posted by ummax

 

why then in the life I have described which is all about compromise whether you choose to actually compromise or not is the expense of a 15 dollar subscription fee so danged important to a small community of veterans who no longer play the game because they now hate it.  

 

If your credit card was double billed for a months sub would you "compromise" by letting it go?

Or would you do something to remedy that issue?

 

this doens't make sense  so I dont understand

If my credit card is double billed I would call about the mistake BECAUSE its a mistake and get it fixed but its still a choice if that is what your getting at but an obvious one that one makes when a mistake is made.  If the next statement is that your mad at sony cause they double billed you once then okay but does it make sense to scream it from the rooftops for 3 years?

 

I just found it interesting that you would imply that a $15 sub fee is "so danged important" to vets but you'll make an effort to retrieve $15 if it was taken from you.

But that is completely unrelated to this conversation.

You make some interesting points(albeit a little confusing in it's delivery). But the thing that I'd like to point out from all of this is that compromise, on the part of gamers, is apathy - and apathy is destroying this industry for everyone who wants more out of their online experiences.

Some things we have to make compromises on as it affects our lives in profound ways. As so many have pointed out this is just a game - and not compromising on this shouldn't have a profound affect on our lives.

Rather it should have a profound affect on the industry.

I doubt I would notice a doulbe billing 15 bucks a month so no i probaby would not do anything about it unless it was recurring and then I suddenly noticed.  I would notice a 300 dollar overcharge.  If i was double biled enough to notice sure like anyone I would attempt to stop it as its an error and if its a recurring error sure.    I brought up the 15 bucks because you did :P  

I also stated that if i had been double billed I didn't notice :)

So not sure what your getting at really ify ou see someone taking more money then they should its an error and you correct it as its an accounting problem.   Would I work hard to get 15 bucks back from a company double billed to me once.  The answer is no. I would ask of course just like anyone (maybe).     I would not stop doing businses with a company however on the basis of the fact they double billed me by accident and I have been overcharged a lot more then that and I have made attempts to get it back and in some cases those attempts failed.   I still do business with those companies though because they have a product I want and THAT is the compromise you speak of I am assuming.    I dont consider someone evil for doing this and I dont think that people are horrible for doing business with companies that screw up heck there are more that screw up then dont.. In any event not sure what you find interesting.    Other then if i noticed I was being double billed for something I would of course try to deal with it especially if its a recurring error.   That's just human nature.  I would nto sue them or run to a message board about it though.  I would simply put in a phone call or ticket to the company and call my credit card provider up and inform them.    So again not sure what your driving at of course anyone seeing a mistake is going to try to get it corrected as its an accounting error that needs to be fixed.. ??

Originally posted by AveBethos

ummax and these other people who are trying this little advertising campaign on behalf of SOE/LA are destroying a bit of MMO gaming for everyone when they do these things...

They are rewarding companies who treat their players unethically.  It's Stockholm Syndrome at the worst.  Why would ANY company hesitate to act the way SOE/LA did when people will go out of their way to do advertising for them?????

Anyone who financially supports SWG today is slapping the face of everyone who once got burned by most likely illegal and most certainly unethical business behavior.  I don't care it is has been 100 years since the NGE was secretly coded and then pushed on the world, corrupt business is corrupt business.  SOE used misrepresented subscription money to code and develop a new game while advertising and flat out lying about the existing one. 

ummax and the OP should be very proud of supporting a company that participates in this, without apology atonement.

I don't think they're destroying MMO gaming at all, quite the opposite.  You're looking into the situation far too far.

The point of MMO games is to get together with other people, develop a community and have fun.  By the sounds of the OP, this is exactly what they're doing.  It's what MMO game discussions should be about.

Well, I'm coming back, so I guess I'll see you all in-game. I can't say what profession I'll be, but I'm definately going to be around. I'll edit this post as soon as I figure out what my name will be.

My character's name is: Archonias D'jinn