General Discussion

Originally posted by rikilii

I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad.

Someone care to explain?

the first thing that comes to mind is that instanced dungeons are where the Gold sellers farm, and players who bot run amuk its the genre's way of hiding thier dirty luandry.

I personaly dont care as long as a MMO is not entirely instanced like Guild Wars, a few instanced dungeons are not going to kill a MMO's community but when it gets to the point that all hunting locations are instanced the community suffers. I prefer being able to see other players while I lvl, being able to interact with strangers in a online game is part of the point in playing an online game after all.

I agree that large numbers of people camping a boss sucks. Maybe the difficulty of the boss could be linked to the number of groups/people in the dungeon ?  That way instead of lots of people waiting their turn, they'd be needed to defeat the stronger boss.  City of Heroes has giant monsters that need many teams to defeat, not just one.  Nobody camps those boss's.

Someone mentioned earlier that WAr had open dungeons but instanced boss battles.  This I like.  Running through a crowded dungeon was never really that bad to me, even though that is half the fun.  But, standing in line for a boss fight always irritated me.  Having an instanced boss fight works wonders for this problem.

Now that I think of it Sword of the New world did the same thing and it works quite fine.

Originally posted by Dhaeman

Kills immersion.

Defeats purpose of a MASSIVELY multiplayer online rpg. Any feature that negates the massive part of an mmorpg is a strike against the game for me.

I'd have to disagree, walking into a dungeon with your party to find it camped by 10 other groups all waiting for mobs to spawn kills immersion.....

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

What's wrong with instanced dungeons? Isn't it obvious?

Because I don't want to have to wait outside a dungeon to ruin your fun. You're limiting my FREEDOM! You're paying a subscription fee to provide ME with content. Why would you want to take that away from me? Why are you so selfish??

Instancing is for carebears and lame-o casual players who want easy mode. They aren't manly enough for REAL PvP. They don't have the dedication to be a PRO and play 12+ hours a day like me. They're just whiney babies who want instant gratification, hand holding, and story-telling. Real gamers know stories are for childrens' books!

Besides, if I'm not playing with over a thousand people on my screen, simultaneously, at all times, then it's not an MMO. Duh. Even retarted folks know that!

And yes, I'm totally being facetious.

Sadly that's exactly how many of the posters on MMORPG.com seem to feel. They can't have fun unless they steal their fun from other players. Vampires that expect the community to continue feeding their empty hunger to ruin someone elses good time.

Let me some up some arguments here.

Instances are bad because:

They are easier - 5 -6 people clearing a dungeon by themselves is not easier than your whole guild going through and clearing the dungeon and then helping out on the last boss.

Immersion - What story ever had the party of adventurers get to the end bad guy and then they waited in line to kill him while the other 3 groups did it. or another group pk's them in the last fight?

Its supposed to be a massive multiplayer game - so anything where the entire server population can't access it at once sucks? Well there are multiple servers in most games so i guess they aren't MMO's since it divides up the game population.  Oh and if 1000 people were all in the same dungeon I guess you would be ok with lag? 

You can't pk someone while in mid fight of a boss - well this only applies to pvp servers which not everyone plays. On a pve server this argument is moot. Second this is ganking.  You want to gank a group in midfight? doesn't this destroy the whole "pk'ers aren't all immature asses " argument?  So yea the fight is now harder because you have to watch your backs but then it can also be eaiser b/c you can just gank the group right before they kill the boss than steal kill him (assuming no encounter locks).

So to sum up instanced dungeons are actually a harder pve encounter.  If a dungeon is non-instanced it is only hard if it is on a pvp server.  Instanced dungeons are more immersive since they are more like a traditional story where one group of adventurers kills a boss. Instancing also lets you add in story elemements and control the encounter more than a non-instanced dungeon.  Instanced dungeons thwart griefers which is a big reason why so many people like them.

Instanced dungeons do take away the fact that there are thosuands of people in your game world and you are all alone in the dungeon.  however you still have your party/raid group so it is still a multi-player game.  It doesn't ruin immersion, as that was covered above. It ruins realism of the game world, perhaps the only partiaslly legitimate arguement, but for most peopel the benefits out weigh the negatives on this one.

Final summation:The people who like non-instanced dungeons and hate instanced dungeons have their own agenda, namely griefing. They want to gank people and control a dungeon so they can get the uber loot and keep people from having the same stuff.  They are a small minority so the genre will go more and more towards instanced dungeons.

Originally posted by galad2003

Let me some up some arguments here.

Instances are bad because:

They are easier - 5 -6 people clearing a dungeon by themselves is not easier than your whole guild going through and clearing the dungeon and then helping out on the last boss.

Immersion - What story ever had the party of adventurers get to the end bad guy and then they waited in line to kill him while the other 3 groups did it. or another group pk's them in the last fight?

Its supposed to be a massive multiplayer game - so anything where the entire server population can't access it at once sucks? Well there are multiple servers in most games so i guess they aren't MMO's since it divides up the game population.  Oh and if 1000 people were all in the same dungeon I guess you would be ok with lag? 

You can't pk someone while in mid fight of a boss - well this only applies to pvp servers which not everyone plays. On a pve server this argument is moot. Second this is ganking.  You want to gank a group in midfight? doesn't this destroy the whole "pk'ers aren't all immature asses " argument?  So yea the fight is now harder because you have to watch your backs but then it can also be eaiser b/c you can just gank the group right before they kill the boss than steal kill him (assuming no encounter locks).

 

So to sum up instanced dungeons are actually a harder pve encounter.  If a dungeon is non-instanced it is only hard if it is on a pvp server.  Instanced dungeons are more immersive since they are more like a traditional story where one group of adventurers kills a boss. Instancing also lets you add in story elemements and control the encounter more than a non-instanced dungeon.  Instanced dungeons thwart griefers which is a big reason why so many people like them.

Instanced dungeons do take away the fact that there are thosuands of people in your game world and you are all alone in the dungeon.  however you still have your party/raid group so it is still a multi-player game.  It doesn't ruin immersion, as that was covered above. It ruins realism of the game world, perhaps the only partiaslly legitimate arguement, but for most peopel the benefits out weigh the negatives on this one.

 

Final summation:The people who like non-instanced dungeons and hate instanced dungeons have their own agenda, namely griefing. They want to gank people and control a dungeon so they can get the uber loot and keep people from having the same stuff.  They are a small minority so the genre will go more and more towards instanced dungeons.

I feel the same way for the most part.  Unless the devs can find a way to stop camping and provide mobs for everyone in non instanced dungeons then it's to much annoyance not having them.  It gives people with a lot of time to much power to control dungeons and prevent others from getting loot.  Most casual players would not be interested in this as they likely work or do something else that takes up a lot of their time and provides pleantly of frustration and they want to sit down and enjoy a not so frustrating gaming experience.
 

How did this thread turn into a PVP-centric discussion?

The argument of "instanced" vs "non-instanced" dungeons is one of immersion, a question of "do other people exist in the world I"m in". 

While waiting in line to kill a respawning boss mob may not be realistic, just the fact that other people might be somewhere in the dungeon with you is very cool and immersive.  Anyone who remembers Lower Guk in Everquest will know what I'm talking about.  Indeed, my character was saved once or twice by a higher level party in Lower Guk.  When all seemed helpless and I was lost and seemingly doomed, another party was there.

And the inadvertent (hopefull) "trains" of aggroed monsters made everyone keep on their toes.  Non-instanced dungeons are a thing to behold.

I think what dev's are learning is that for every perceived annoyance they eliminate, they also risk removing significant fun that was tied to that annoyance.