Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

I was following Vanguard and dark and Light both since they were announced. Dark and Light was once very hyped as the next big thing, and most who played Settlers of Ganareth, as those who have the "privilege" to play it now, are very sceptical, to say the least. I always have a deep distrust to hypes, and I really can't understand why Vanguard get so high credits by so many game previews.

Sure, if you are what is called a very hardcore player, wanting great risks and high obstacles, thats fine for you. But previews and game journalists should be oblieged to a wider audience, and clearly speak of the quite critical issues. I only bring a few as examples.

1) the famous corpse run: most people I know who played Everquest I told me they hated it. Whatever you personally think about this, how easy or complicated these corpse runs yet remains to be seen. With bad luck community-wise and bad spawning system this might as well work out as a player hell. It depends on many factors, some of which Sigil hardly can control, like how the community will evolve on each server. If a server gathers a ver immaure and unfriendly community, it can be very difficult to get the needed help. Besides, no player who started playing any of the bigger games (SWG, EQ2, WOW, GW, CoH and so on) knows a corpse run, so this rollback in a past age will likely confuse quite a large audience and maybe rethink bying it.

2) Sigil has repeatedly stated to make quests that need sppecial professions to be made. I can not see the logic in that decision. I enjoy quests or tasks which allow multiple approaches, that is what I feel is the special thing about an RPG, otherwise it is only an adventure, where you play an exact plot. Online RPGs, compared to solo RPGs already lack the choices in the way a quest can be solved, and I would expect new games to widen the possibilities, not narrow them down MORE, as Vaguard seems to aim. In EQ2 so many quests have many, complicated steps,  which makes it often quite difficult to find enough people to make your next quest step. This is a difficulty I rarely had in WOW, because they made their quests less complicated and this easier to find people. Vanguard sounds like a science, quests whose every step I have to study in internet walkthroughs before even thinking to undertake them. The way quests, crafting and many other things are very dependent on each other, sound very difficult and could quickly kill the fun for those who are not already gifted with unemployment.

3) The long travelling is also a possible great fun killer. Whats the aim in going the same long path again and again by foot, especially in such a big world?

I can't go into detail, but overall some features in Vanguard sound like great time sinks to me, and I don't like the idea of time sinks at all. My lifetime is really too precious to me for them. The mix Vanguard tries to establish sounds more like a receipe to be the next big dissapointment then a big hit.

Simply put, if you are looking for a game that you can play on E-Z Mode, Vanguard will not be it.

You should probably seek elsewhere.

Respectfully yours....

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Originally posted by SpiritofGame

Simply put, if you are looking for a game that you can play on E-Z Mode, Vanguard will not be it.

You should probably seek elsewhere.

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Simply put, if you are looking for a game that you can play on E-Z Mode, Vanguard will not be it.

You should probably seek elsewhere.

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Eikal - Even though SpiritofGame was nasty and patronizing in his response, he is right on one point. . .  Vanguard probably isn't the game for you.  It probably isn't the game for even people who like nasty, hardcore rule-sets unless it gets a lot of work (You can read several review threads on this forum from people who saw it at E3.  Responses are mixed, but extremely negative reviews are abundant).

So, don't play it because it's inaccessible or don't play it because it's trash.   Also, as Spirit points out, the game is going to be filled with hardcore players who think that effort and drudgery = skill.  If you suggest changes to the game because you hate a feature that is boring, tedious, or frustrating, the band of hardcore masochists will call you a noob carebear.

I saw all the games at E3, and I tend to agree with MMORPG that Gods & Heroes is going to be the next big thing (It won MMORPG's Best of Show award E3 2006 - as well as many, many other awards from various sites - more Best of Show awards than any other MMO).  Other games to look at that also looked awesome at the show are Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, and Warharmmer Online (though it won't be out until Christmas 2008, so you'll want to play one of those other before then).

But don't take my word for it.  Simply look those games up on their sites and check out their videos, dev posts, etc.  The Age of Conan website isn't up-to-speed yet (and Age of Conan was definitely in ealry beta at the show. . .  I think it will be a March 2007 release or later) - but Gods & Heroes and Tabula Rasa are both coming together nicely.

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Originally posted by dink

Originally posted by SpiritofGame
Simply put, if you are looking for a game that you can play on E-Z Mode, Vanguard will not be it.
You should probably seek elsewhere.

Simply put, if you are looking for a game that you can play on E-Z Mode, Vanguard will not be it.
You should probably seek elsewhere.

Eikal - Even though SpiritofGame was nasty and patronizing in his response, he is right on one point. . .  Vanguard probably isn't the game for you.  It probably isn't the game for even people who like nasty, hardcore rule-sets unless it gets a lot of work (You can read several review threads on this forum from people who saw it at E3.  Responses are mixed, but extremely negative reviews are abundant).
So, don't play it because it's inaccessible or don't play it because it's trash.   Also, as Spirit points out, the game is going to be filled with hardcore players who think that effort and drudgery = skill.  If you suggest changes to the game because you hate a feature that is boring, tedious, or frustrating, the band of hardcore masochists will call you a noob carebear.
I saw all the games at E3, and I tend to agree with MMORPG that Gods & Heroes is going to be the next big thing (It won MMORPG's Best of Show award E3 2006 - as well as many, many other awards from various sites - more Best of Show awards than any other MMO).  Other games to look at that also looked awesome at the show are Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, and Warharmmer Online (though it won't be out until Christmas 2008, so you'll want to play one of those other before then).
But don't take my word for it.  Simply look those games up on their sites and check out their videos, dev posts, etc.  The Age of Conan website isn't up-to-speed yet (and Age of Conan was definitely in ealry beta at the show. . .  I think it will be a March 2007 release or later) - but Gods & Heroes and Tabula Rasa are both coming together nicely.

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Maybe you should spend more time hanging about in the Gods & Heroes forum? What always amazes me with you guys is you always try to come across as impartial, and you exercise that impartiality by trolling the forums of games you dislike. The fact is gamers in this forum do not have some perverse love for vanguard we merely enjoy what the game promises, but instead of general disscusion about the game every thread gets swamped in a sea of negativity, because of strange nightmarish creatures who seem to have a more than unhealthy dislike of vanguard.

Your calm facade of "merely stating facts", and i'm not criticising the game but.....means little because of the transparency of the writing and also the abundance of the posts, although the trolls are getting more clever of late not even a vague mention of Soe, the real reason behind the whining, as that would deem your posts in the wrong place.

P.s This is of course not solely aimed at you for you are many.

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Originally posted by Elikal

I was following Vanguard and dark and Light both since they were announced. Dark and Light was once very hyped as the next big thing, and most who played Settlers of Ganareth, as those who have the "privilege" to play it now, are very sceptical, to say the least. I always have a deep distrust to hypes, and I really can't understand why Vanguard get so high credits by so many game previews.

Sure, if you are what is called a very hardcore player, wanting great risks and high obstacles, thats fine for you. But previews and game journalists should be oblieged to a wider audience, and clearly speak of the quite critical issues. I only bring a few as examples.

1) the famous corpse run: most people I know who played Everquest I told me they hated it. Whatever you personally think about this, how easy or complicated these corpse runs yet remains to be seen. With bad luck community-wise and bad spawning system this might as well work out as a player hell. It depends on many factors, some of which Sigil hardly can control, like how the community will evolve on each server. If a server gathers a ver immaure and unfriendly community, it can be very difficult to get the needed help. Besides, no player who started playing any of the bigger games (SWG, EQ2, WOW, GW, CoH and so on) knows a corpse run, so this rollback in a past age will likely confuse quite a large audience and maybe rethink bying it.

2) Sigil has repeatedly stated to make quests that need sppecial professions to be made. I can not see the logic in that decision. I enjoy quests or tasks which allow multiple approaches, that is what I feel is the special thing about an RPG, otherwise it is only an adventure, where you play an exact plot. Online RPGs, compared to solo RPGs already lack the choices in the way a quest can be solved, and I would expect new games to widen the possibilities, not narrow them down MORE, as Vaguard seems to aim. In EQ2 so many quests have many, complicated steps,  which makes it often quite difficult to find enough people to make your next quest step. This is a difficulty I rarely had in WOW, because they made their quests less complicated and this easier to find people. Vanguard sounds like a science, quests whose every step I have to study in internet walkthroughs before even thinking to undertake them. The way quests, crafting and many other things are very dependent on each other, sound very difficult and could quickly kill the fun for those who are not already gifted with unemployment.

3) The long travelling is also a possible great fun killer. Whats the aim in going the same long path again and again by foot, especially in such a big world?

I can't go into detail, but overall some features in Vanguard sound like great time sinks to me, and I don't like the idea of time sinks at all. My lifetime is really too precious to me for them. The mix Vanguard tries to establish sounds more like a receipe to be the next big dissapointment then a big hit.

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SWG had corpse runs back at launch. Without mounts or bikes, it was a real pain to get back to your body. And the corpse half the time was bugged. I probably lost 5 backpacks full of stuff because it wouldnt let me pick it up for some reason.

Vanguard has previously geared this game for the hardcore types. However, I wont be suprised if this changes. SOE is involved now and they care only about profits (see SWG). I thought Sigil was the anti-SOE of the game world the way Brad talked about not caring about appealing to large broad player base. Then he goes and signs up with the devil.

DnL center a LOT around a very few innovations.

Vanguard has a different approach on innovations.  I think Vanguard will fail, but for different reasons.  I also think Vanguard get an exagerated cover up online, due to old raiding fans with many accounts and the fact raiders are overepresented in online forums.  I hope I am wrong and Vanguard is a brilliant success, but I have very little faith for them.  I said it once, I will repeat it...Vanguard is a garage league.

DnL, beside promises and drama (even in production with the guy who got the 'MAIN' feature idea for the game), I think it is unfair to compare them to the nice folks at Sigil...I have many disagreements and I even call them 'Garage League'...but they have proven, in the past, that they CAN do something.  DnL chat a lot, but they didn't prove much more than me or you! 

Raiding is to Brad what the 'Holy Grail' was to King Arthur, he will lose everything about this and when he abandon it(Arthur didn't use it and bring it back, once he 'found it', he resume Real stuff and abandon all silly stuff), his bastard son, Mordred of WoW (Or BioWare eventually niak niak niak) might already be victorious.  I wish Brad would keep dreaming for the greater purpose and arms himself responsiblies...rather than hold to raiding like Arthur keep sending his knights for the Holy Grail!  Actually, maybe Brad is Lancelot and Arthur would be Johny...I dunno...Arthur didn't win in all versions of the story...but it would seem that they are re-united, what happen from here...we will see...soon enough.

Hm, thats all interesting info some post.

Well, I don't have a real problem with the fact not all games are for everyone. But the position, Vanguard is not for you, move on, is just a bit oversimplified. Vanguard has many good things, but it has also a hand full of very "problematic" things, some I just think the devs of Vanguard - and many fans - haven't really thought about.

I hear repeatedly the inventor of Vanguard loves raids. Well, since many Vanguard fans seem to be hating WOW so deeply they may be surprised, but WOW has developed a great Raid fondness quite as well. Thats what more and more WOW players have started to complain about. I always respect people's personal tastes, raid, group or solo, it doesn't matter. I did them all, liked them all, BUT I do not like to be dictated what is a "good" play style and what a "bad" one. I want them to be equal in result and difficulty, so at each time I, the player and paying customer can choose what I want to do today. And currenly in most MMO the company decides for me, and I simply think that is not a very customer friendly thing to do.

Honestly, I think many things fan defend now will only be so good a while and in their imagination. (Like that LOONG travel times. Doesn't sound quite exciting to me. When in EQ2 or WOW I was flying that Griffons for the first time, I was in awe. But I assure you, after the 500s time you simply want to click a teleport button and not watch the same scene AGAIN. Everything gets old after some time.)

A thing that really surprised me was the way the Vanguard forum evolved. I do not hate or love games or gamers of whatever game. The very idea to regard a simple hobby with such emotions, or even a person who likes a game, sounds like something utterly childish to me. But here you are, scanning the Vanguard forum, and the fans are grinding every critics to tiny pieces! I rarely have seen such a hive of aggro-kids a long time. Everyone suggesting simple features like auto-map or channels is ferociously attacked. I like difficult games too, and my 20 years computer gaming history surely tells about that, but there is a huge difference between boring or tedious and difficult.

Travelling for hours reaching your quest spot, wasting hours for corpse retrieval, getting lost because of no map or spending hours to find a group because of no channel, sorry that doesn't sound difficult, it merely sounds very, very boring. I took part in the RF Online beta, and it showed, that 90% of the time you spend there is the most mindless grind of the ever the same creatures. The fans defended that as "difficult". I never understood what's so difficult in grinding. Difficult is beating Kasparov in Check, or the Brazil Soccer team, difficult is educating George Bush in world politics or the Pope of Rome in tolerance. But mindless grind, click click click click click - a four year old child can do that.