Developers Corner

Originally posted by Libearty

I like MMOs that have PvP as I think it helps test a player's abilities. However, I find the downside of PvP is that it is very difficult for a casuall player to be competitive. I suppose there are many differences in opinion but to me a person who has a 9 to 5 job will always have it rough compared to someone that someone that can spend countless hours on the computer. Depending on the MMO, this can give an unfair advantage where someone with the extra time can gank a lower or more inexperienced player. I don't think PvP should be carebear as they call it. It should be dangerous and difficult but there should be a bit of sanity also. I recall when Ultima Online first started their onine experience and high level characters were simply killing new players for stepping out of the safe zone which left only things like fishing to do. Nuthing more annoying than being level 1 and having a level bizillion character pop out of the shadows, kill you, dance over your body, then hover over your body waiting for you to resurrect. I think all levels and abilities should be hidden in PVP play so you would really be taking your chances when fighting someone. That other player could be a newb or maybe he is god killer. I think PvP would be more realistic if even high level players would have to take a guess at whether it was safe to take someone on or not.  If you think your such a bad $&@ then go for it, jus that when when that little meek looking character hands your head back to you that you'll realize that the dangers of PvP don't just apply to newbs and casuall players. PvP doesn't need to be carebear but it also shouldn't cater to people who have more time to play or people than Min Max the system. PvP should be dangerous and made to test the skill and ingenuity of all players regardless of level.

It's very difficult to balance between the hardcore and and casual players, it's not impossible thou. But the first thing is you need to address what the players are asking here.

What the casual players asking is actually an alternative grind treadmill. That is, when other players grind through the formal treadmill, the casual players demand a less difficult alternative treadmill. So all you need to do is to give them an alternative treadmill but without many complaints from those grinding the formal one. That's where the difficulty is coming from.

I am not a creative person, thou I am good at speculation. So my only solution to this is a total breakthrough in designing a brand new and superb NPC system and a superior quest system, such that this supreme quest system will act as an alternative grind without too much complaint from those grinding the hack'n slash treadmill. Again, this is truly difficult and requires some AI breakthough.

Instead of any need for a breakthrough quest system, we simply need a system that gives players the freedom to choose and accomplish their own goals in the game on their own time.

In most mmorpgs to date, there is really only one goal.  Level up, get better and better, get more powerful, etc.  Then if they throw in any form of PvP on top of this, if anyone is involved that didn't get to that point by the same tedious treadmill, then it will seem unfair.   So to review, there is one goal, and thus only one way to achieve it so that it will seem fair to those involved.

At this point some will note that there are other 'professions' like crafters and harvesters, but they are always designed as a means to the same end.  Everything they craft is for the improvement of the equipment and buffs, etc, of the players grinding along the single goal path.

So remove the arbitrary levels, and instead put in a variety of situations in a completely dynamic player driven world.  Players can learn and develop skills and tactics to work towards goals of their own choosing.  Now the whole PvP issue is much more broadly defined.  Players compete and cooperate in a wide variety of complex actions.  It's not just grind up the levels and then fight in some arena, but it is players coming up with goals and counter goals to further their own plans.  The whole distinction between hardcore and casual is blurred.  A casual player will be expected to set casual goals that they can build at their own pace and then enact in the time that they have available to play.

For example, a casual gamer might set a very engaging and realistic goal of being a mercenary for hire for some specific jobs every now and then.  Slowly, as they have time, they travel around, learn the skills they think they will need, gather up a nice equipment set tailored to the anticipated tasks, and then they begin to take small jobs that take just an hour or so to complete.  They attach themselves to traveling parties and offer protection, sometimes at no cost at all, or for a very reasonable fee.

They begin to have all sorts of 30 minute adventures, sometimes getting beat into the dirt, sometimes averting danger for the whole caravan by scouting ahead, realizing an impending danger, and devising a plan that actually works out.  They may even start to build up a reputation and people actually seek them out for jobs, even planning them around that person's availability.  And just imagine, all this from the supposedly casual player.

Now of course a person with more time on their hands could accomplish similar things in less time and do it more often, but in a diverse and large world, the party looking to hire is unconcerned with how fast the player got to that point, but simply what point they are at now.  If they need someone at that moment and run into either the casual player or the other, their decision is in the moment and if the job is only going to take a couple of hours, it is based on other things.

Of course there are many more time consuming goals that casual players may not be able to participate in as fully, such as the grand ongoing military campaigns and building up of great empires and the day to day tasks of running a major merchant or mage guild, but that is not to say that they will not be able to interact with these entities and participate on some level.  Surely they won't resent that they themselves don't have the time for these long-term time-consuming goals, because the time needed isn't pre-programmed into the design, rather it is perceived as an inherent and natural requirement.  Also it is not the only path available, simply one of a virtually unlimited pool of  viable and enjoyable courses.

That's cool.

When I said breakthrough in quest and NPC AI, I mean that I am getting tired of today's boring quest system. I think that quests should be made more interesting, especially when it is used to be an alternative grind.

For instance, a causal player is expected to be in game on a regular base but he will not be able to stay long saves the weekends. Some kind of intelligence may have to be included in the game engine to identify this group of players. Then the quest system shall be designed adequately.

For example, a causal player enters the game at 9:00pm, the game engine should be able to address that this is a causal player that he most likely would like to spend 2 hours in game that night. So a tailored quest can be introducted. When he go out to grind, suddenly a twister appears to drag him into an unknown (instanced) village or dungeon when he has like 2 hours to complete his detective type quest on time. He needs to solve the problems given, in the end faces the tough mob boss alone and defeats it. He must complete this timely within 2 hours, or else an automatic mission abortion will be called.

The quest engine must be able to create such a kind of quest scenarios in a more dynamic, fascinating but rather random and non-repeative way such that the players will not be bored. Such a kind of quests will be given much more frequently to the active casually players, but rather rarely to those 24/7 kids on top of the hack'n slash treadmill. The rewards of such a kind of quests will be rich in terms of gold, item and skill/level gains.

im a carebare in WoW, i really hate the pvp in there, but i like the PVP in EVE 0.0 systems a lot ( at least before capital ship came ), but to the point, class/lvl based games fails big in the fact that almost anyone u can estimate their lvl and or class but its "tooltip" or targeting window, esp if their below your lvl, such a thing only works in the benifit of gankers tbh ( yea, i do think about wow.:P ), and big enough lvl advantage and u wont even have to worrie about the others doing any dmg to you and at the same time u can nuke em all to hell with one easy to use AoE ability, and class system is also has a bit problem since the best balance u can achive between classes in those is something similar to "Paper, rock, scissors" . it also almost need an seemless world or you get zoning that just a ambush waiting to happen, its also easy to spot class and some times estimate lvl by looking at the gear other players is using, esp in gear dependent games skill based games are also much harder to create to make it balanced and letting ppl getting a lot of different playstiles to choose from thous it need a lot more work in pre-development costing money so its easier to make a class/lvl based system.

PS hope im making sence, its way to late but i cant sleep :P

I dunno . . .  but I really liked the way that SWG preCU did the PvP.  You could choose overt or covert. 

In any type of game, make it PvP.  You can then choose what level of PvP, if any, you would like. 

yes, no?

Originally posted by Anofalye

PvP means that at least 50% players are losers.

 

MMORPGs are particuliar in the sense that players are playing a LOT.  Most normals peoples cant substain been a loser 50% of the time.

There is the misconception. One "good" PvP ganker, with good weapons and armor, kills loads of novice players. Several such gankers can ruin the game for a whole population of PvEers forever.

It is not 50%-50% chance, but 99%-1% chance, where the 133t grindfest ganker gets 899% of the killing and all the other 99% of the gamers get out of the game.

The only way PvP is fun is in structured PvP where people join it willingly and you get a good matching system to give low end players other low end foes to fight, and high end player - other high end foes.