General Discussion

You're Wrong

Interesting read that holds some truths and a catch 22.

discussion: how right or wrong is the author.

He is wrong and right at the same time.

Yes, constant "this sucks"-whining should be ignored.
Yes, good thought on current mechanics should be digested, and here i disagree with the author. If a suggestion from a user is well thought and fits into the game, then why not? There are many things in Eve-Online for example the community suggested. Jumpfreighters, Electronic Warfare Frigates. Even the Triage-Module for Carriers, Jumpbridges..many, many ideas came from the community. Why discard that? There is nothing wrong with discussing additions and changes when you as a developer still preserve a vision for your own game, follow it - and discard suggestions that do not fit in.

I very much agree with the article.  So many people around here attack today's MMOs for their faults, and while I certainly believe there is much room for improvement, the majority of complaints levelled against the current king are directed at the wrong things.

When you're asking for challenge, are you really asking to die a lot, and repeat the content until you finally beat it, or are you asking for more strategy?  In which case the game slows down.  Or do you want more twitch - well that way the game speeds up?  Still not what you want?  You need a better vocabulary, because 'challenge' doesn't cut it when it comes to game design.

People aren't properly articulating their arguments, giving a very personal opinion, and not seeing 'the big picture'.  Most of the time, people are stubborn and unwilling to change their opinions.  And there's a great deal of snobbery from hardcore gamers, if something is popular or successful, it's considered somehow 'dumbed down'.   Yet if you actually look at what a 'dumb game', such as WoW or LOTRO provides, these have actually a hell of a lot more choices and options than less intuitive games.  Sure, Everquest has a lot of content - far more than WoW - but for catering to gameplay styles and choices, WoW provides so much more.

Detractors throw words around like depth, skill, immersion, challenge - without really understanding how these terms apply to gameplay.  It's like people who say that a game that takes longer to reach the level cap is more difficult.  It's bullshit - you're not asking to make things more difficult, you're asking to repeat more content to get the rewards.  If you're just asking for MORE CONTENT, then fine, that's a valid argument.

I could go on for pages and pages, but I'll leave this mini-rant as it is for now.

Originally posted by batolemaeus

He is wrong and right at the same time.

Yes, constant "this sucks"-whining should be ignored.
Yes, good thought on current mechanics should be digested, and here i disagree with the author. If a suggestion from a user is well thought and fits into the game, then why not? There are many things in Eve-Online for example the community suggested. Jumpfreighters, Electronic Warfare Frigates. Even the Triage-Module for Carriers, Jumpbridges..many, many ideas came from the community. Why discard that? There is nothing wrong with discussing additions and changes when you as a developer still preserve a vision for your own game, follow it - and discard suggestions that do not fit in.

I agree with the article but Bato makes a good point. Devs need to separate the screaming and yelling from the calm voices of reason. When the unwashed masses cry for more PVP 14 days before launch, devs should not be so quick to delay and then drop in some half baked PVP model that satisfies no one.

What Recant said, including his signature. :D

Edit: and I'll add in that smart developers (and most developers of actually released MMOGs are smart) look more at what (all) people do than at what (a few vocal) people say. ;-)

I also think that the author is both right and wrong for several reasons. While I do agree that developers should ignore complaints from individuals or small groups I think they should pay close attention to the overall feeling toward their game the community is relating. In other words pay attention to the height of the tide and not to the individual waves. Polls are a useful tool for doing this but only if they are posted in several different game related and subject related forums and averaged out. This means that if your making a Smurf MMORPG you would want the overall opinion from not only the MMO and general game related forums but also from the Smurf fan sites too (Sorry Smurfs was the only thing I could think of right now). This makes sure that no one community has to much pull on a subject and gets you the widest sample possible to base your decisions on. One person or a small group of people with loud voices can and will lead developers to make bad development decisions but if you can get a sample from the broader community on a given subject it should be closely scrutinized.

I do however agree that developers should stay quiet about a project until they have something to show for their efforts. I like to hear about games in development as much as anyone else but a lot of the "Forum Wars" over games could be totally avoided if developers just keep quiet about what they are doing until they have a working game to show. This gets rid of all the speculating people do over what a game should and shouldn't have and keeps the discussion based only on the facts. Oh well just my 2 cents on the subject.

Bren

Originally posted by Brenelael

Polls are a useful tool for doing this but only if they are posted in several different game related and subject related forums and averaged out. This means that if your making a Smurf MMORPG you would want the overall opinion from not only the MMO and general game related forums but also from the Smurf fan sites too (Sorry Smurfs was the only thing I could think of right now).

Yes, we're a friendly bunch, aren't we? :p

The most valid point is the fact that people who use the forums are not the majority of the community.   if all of WoW used the forums you couldn't keep a post on the fifth page if you wanted to.  it even holds true for EvE online.

Originally posted by Dreamagram

 

Originally posted by Brenelael

Polls are a useful tool for doing this but only if they are posted in several different game related and subject related forums and averaged out. This means that if your making a Smurf MMORPG you would want the overall opinion from not only the MMO and general game related forums but also from the Smurf fan sites too (Sorry Smurfs was the only thing I could think of right now).

Actually, I miss games doing what EQ had for at least a while: polls on login. This means you get everybody's opinion (as long as they log in at least once per month or so), not only those who actually visit forums. Naturally, showing the results to the players is asking for trouble, as they'd misinterpret the numbers however they please and slam them in your face together with a "you fail" stamp whenever possible.

 

Yes, we're a friendly bunch, aren't we? :p