Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

---

Originally posted by pingofdeath
yea all this SoE stuff is about as silly as people putting a $ in Microsoft.  if you genuinely believe SoE or MS are giant evil entities bent on screwing people out of their money you're delusional.

---

---

Originally posted by NerdyChick

As to the game being for "Hard Core" gamers.  Content wise, sure, I can see that.  Show me a game that isn't for kids that doesn't have "Hard Core Content".

---

---

Originally posted by NerdyChick

Too many people want their game on a silver platter.  Some people find that fun.  "Go go go, Woo I am UBBAH... OKay now I am bored, I got here too quick." is common in todays super easy, spoonfed world.  A game like Vanguard will be a refreshing challenge for a lot of people.

---

---

Originally posted by Arremus

What about Vanguard isn't for kids? How is it more "hardcore" than WoW or EQ2 in the sense that would make it 'not for kids'? o.O It have blatant sexual themes or very violent deaths and carnage? Age doesn't measure maturity by any stretch of the imagination, especially not in the online world. So mind clarifying what you mean here?

---

I was thinking about games like Toon Town actually.  MMO's built specifically for children.  And by hardcore content I was refering time consuming content, such as raids.

---

Originally posted by Arremus

This is another argument I find stupid and very high-and-mighty, or rather, elitist. Hardcore endless grind = difficult, the sense of having good fast paced fun = silverplatter..?
So it doesn't matter if Guild Wars 3 takes twice as long to get to level cap than Vanguard due to difficulty, because you need to grind and grind to raid worthiness in Vanguard it's more hardcore and for the 'real' gamer?

I personally think a game like Hero's Journey has a lot more going for it in the sense of having fun in a game - in theory of what we can read about the two games so far - just as I'd say Conan appeals a lot more in its 'arcadey' sense. Both these games look to have big worlds, lots of content, very interesting playing styles etc. The Wyr in HJ alone looks to go beyond what any other MMO has tried to date.
But there is nothing to say these types of games will be 'easy' or remotely fast-paced-to-level-cap easy.
And if we find we don't end up in the grind-to-level-cap-and-corpse-run-and-pretend-that-equals-more-difficulty cycle then we're just playing some silverplatter spoonfed shallow game?

The fact Hero's Journey is going to have a GM fueled focus on roleplaying, the 'first person' archery and horse riding battles in Conan, all the things that give these other games so much more depth than what's currently out, doesn't equal a more 'hardcore' experience?

I'm sorry, but that whole argument doesn't hold water. It's not a more hardcore style of play, it's just another niche genre style of play. Just like open, full loot PvP. Now that is hardcore gameplay. Or permadeath.

Nothing I've read so far screams at me "Vanguard is going to be better than anything else around atm!". And believe me, I loooove a good challenge. Not just grind and corpse run for the sake of calling it "hardcore".

---

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying here.  I am talking playability wise in regards to "Hard Core" games.  Things like setting up a raid, running a difficult quest smoothly, finding recipes and materials for crafting.  There is nothing wrong with the fast paced games.  Its the overly easy games, where you dont actually have to have skill or patience or even pay attention to anything around you that are spoonfeeding people.  There just happens to be, from my personal experience, a lot of those on the market right now. 

I am not saying Vanguard is going to be the next biggest, bestest game known to gamers everywhere.  Everyone has their own personal preferences, play styles and niches.  I am personally looking forward to Vangaurd as a challenging game, and a fan conscience company.

---

Originally posted by Bama1267

---

Originally posted by pingofdeath
yea all this SoE stuff is about as silly as people putting a $ in Microsoft.  if you genuinely believe SoE or MS are giant evil entities bent on screwing people out of their money you're delusional.

---

True that..............but I wont spend my money on any game that in some way will make money for SOE. They did bad business with SWG and will never get another dime from me...tv's, stereos...or games. The company can rot in hell for all I care.

---

2x post sorry

---

Originally posted  posted by jimmyman99

 Good points. However, I will dare to correct you, IMO people started quitting WoW not becuase of its fast paced gameplay, but rather becuase they reached the end too quickly. I personally never reached high end game - I love rolling out different classes and play them whenever i get bored with my main. However, WoW isnt a big (geographically) game, so this fast paced gaming is making it look even smaller. After rolling out 6-7 chars, I had trouble finding unique zones to level in. The solution to this imo is to keep fast paced gameplay, but make the game HUGE... Imagine WoW (if you played it) having landmass the size of D&L, but not empty landmass. Quests, wars, fortresses, PvP, stores, army vs army combat, aerial/naval combat... if a game can manage to fill that huge void with content, but keeping a fast paced and rich combat style, we could have another WoW-ish hit. In the case of VSOH, i dont mind it being a bit slower in gaining experience, or being a bit more group oriented AS LONG as I am not restricted by it. I do like to solo most of the time, and even if im not able to get to the top level by soloing, I will accept that. As long as I have an option to choose my own gameplay, my own gamestyle at my own pace and at my own time.

---

You have focused on one of the problems of fast play. Everyone races to the end game and they find that there isn't much there with a new game and the problem is increased when a huge part of the server population are all in the same area. You get bored and make bunch of alts, but find that doing the same fast run with each one really doesn't equal enjoyable play and so you move on to another game or quit until future expansions.

If you can make the trip to the end game fun and challenging then moveing through levels too fast will push you beyond great content and bottle neck the end game. I never understood why so many want to hit the top level ASAP when you can have huge amount of fun at all levels. For me I would like to see about 600 in game hours to hit top level. This would put a person who plays 20 hours per week 8 months to hit the top level. A 10 hour per week player would be 1.6 years, and a 40 hour player 4 months. This would spread out everyone on the server across many levels. Equipment doesn't need to come fast too. Equipment can trivialize events. We saw this in EQ when great equipment mudified the lower levels. When it happens over years it is not a bad thing, but when it happens over months it is.

In a fast game what do you do when you want a game to last for many years of play, but the game play is so fast that majority of the server are all sitting around waiting on the next expansion just to fly through it too. If you can slow the play to where you can release a large expansion every 6 to 8 months only the people who invest 40 plus hours per week would hit the wall and need to quickly get to the end game would not be there.

Everything is a time sink, but time sinks do not need to be a grind. Slower leveling develops a greater sense of accomplishment on gaining levels, and equipment that is hard to get creates a greater feeling of reward for your efforts in the game. It took me a year to hit level 50 in EQ and I enjoyed it all the way. My server matured very nicely over a 5 year period. If you find fun in having a few chars that you develop over years you have the older MMO mentatility. If you want to play and see all the game in a few months like playing an Xbox game then you have more of that Xbox play style. The Xbox play style is a very large number of players, but that doesn't mean every MMO needs to fit that mold. Vanguard is leaning away from that style and that is why it has the hype it does