All Posts by gestalt11

If they communicated the actual state then their initial sales would have been lower.

If Funcom had been honest and forthright instead of dishonest would I have subscribed instead of not subscribing?  Me probably not, but I could see maybe some people subbing and waiting for some features to be implemented or functional.

However in the end that is only good for about 1-2 months.  And since there is no way AoC will have all the missing features in that time they only had one option; lie like dogs.  Especially since, as has been demonstrated,  you can string a fanboy a long for quite some time.  The only problem with stringing fanboys a long is that usually creates a rabid hateboy.  However since they chose to lie they have essentially already crossed that bridge anyway.  Lying and hype will generate quite a bit of hate.  So they might as well milk the fanboys as long as they can.  No downside to it really.

Originally posted by Dhaeman

I'm even willing to try a browser based game to find a fun combat system. I'd either like action or some strategic thought but there's really nothing out there other than what is listed above.

Well the stuff I listed is perfectly playable and fun.  I mean they have your downside so pick your poison.

Seriously some of those older games like Neocron and Jumpgate are interesting to play just because they have a very different content model.  They are worth playing for a month or two without criticisizing them.

Some of these MMOs are much more fun when you do not look at them like they are an investment.  Of course most people here are addicted to the investment mentality and its "progression".

I think that a lot of people know this instinctively or intuitively.

However there are a couple major details:

1) gamebreaking bugs

2) promising things for years and not delivering at all on them.

Neither of those things are acceptable.  having say 10% of quests bugged is OK.  Nto great but people will just bitch a bit.

Having a major dupe bug that destroys the economy is omsething else entirely.

Claiming to have DX10 implemented and running for over two years.  Promising it  and having customer actually upgrade computers and Operating Systems and then pulling it out 2 days before release.  Is not OK.  That is pure Charlie Brown trying to kick the footbal.

So yes a certain amount of minor to moderate bugs are expected and while they are grumbled about and drama queens act like the world will end the HUGE bugs and flat out lies or hugely broken promises are not.

Yes most software project relases with bugs but very very few release in a state where they do not actually work.  The problem with MMORPGs I suppose is something are not considered "broken" even though they break major parts of the game.  I am sure some deve houses have considered dupe bugs to be like this.  But they are wrong.  oN the other hand 10% of quest being bugged is ok because if you have enough quest players will work around it, sure they grumble but they still keep going.

The fact is you budget your testing around this.  Major bugs must be found.  You also do your marketing based on this.  You can promise big, but you only do it if you are pretty certain its in.  And if it isn't MUST do a major mea culpa.

Originally posted by Inzra

forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php

Seriously, to all the whiners out there you really need to get a move on, and actually accept that there ARE plenty of people enjoying the game despite all issues - which I don't really find that major.

You bought the game, you signed an agreement, you didn't like it. Is that Funcom's fault? No.

So, find a game to your liking or do something else.

 

AoC is interesting in that it has something both for the haters and the lovers, but focusing on the dislikes only wont make you want to play the game any more...

Do you have any idea whom that poster is?  Because I do.  They are a complete drama queen (and they are male not female) and are one of the biggest piece of unproductive shtuff that ever existed on the AoC boards.  Someone who has been posting on the AoC boards for years as well.

Aligning yourself with someone like that, seriously you have no idea how off you are.

Ah ad hominen attacks the only refuge of the fanboy.  Because if they are whiner then what they are saying doesn't hold any wait.  Even if its true.

I love it when you see a fanboy make a fake post like that.  And all it says is anyone saying something negative is a stupid whiner who write in caps and then you see like 3 well written posts about why they are leaving and then the fanboys go right on believing in this sad parody of the truth.

Its both sad and funny at the same time.  Its sort of cathartic.

Convience doesn't kill immersion.

The very assertion implies that all immersive things are a pain in the ass.  That is completely preposterous.

However poorly designed "immserion" can be extremely inconvient and convience is more important than immersion.

YES you heard me MORE important.  Why?  Immersion is nice and cool but inconvience means that only 20% of people will play your game.

The fact is that if you want some feature to be  "immersive" or "meaningful" and that this feature will put a m unwanted burden on the players when they try to take advantage of other features in the game then it is up to the developers to create a good solution because no matter what the immersion nerds think it IS a problem.

The best example is Eve travel versus old school EQ1travel.  They are/were both quite long and involved.  EQ1 was poorly designed and Eve is wel ldesigned.  Why? One simple reason.  You do not need to travel far in Eve.  Therefore travel is kept meaningful and purposefully burdensome but the players are not forced to repeatedly and perpetually shoulder that burden.

Any game that repeatedly and frequently forces players to shoulder unwanted burdens is poorly designed.  It has nothing to do with immersion.  Its invovlement with immersion is purely tangental because developers implement features meant to be immersive without fully going over the consequences.

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by xxreaper008

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Souldrainer

 Previous release figure was 500K, now it is 700K.  That is growth.

for context, the 500k figure was reported 2 weeks after launch,  or specifically 06-06-2008

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/185772

 

 yes, AOC had growth after it launched, but that is to be expected

Your trying to prove a point, but to bad you did it poorly damn flammer

 

Using your logic, 2 weeks is 500k.  5 weeks is 700k. So that is 65k a week. 52 weeks in a year? 52-2=50. 50*65k=3250k+500k, ZOMG 3750k every yearz!!! 3.7mil!!111!!!1

using your ASSUMPTIONS of my logic - only shows you trolling

 

 

my point

AOC had more accounts after its 1st 2 weeks ----  nothing else intended by my post

I wouldn't argue with Nadia, she like actually knows stuff and rarely tips her hand.

Originally posted by spiveslude

join a higher end guild for grind groups. join a grind group. stop complaining and grind. name me 1 game where you didnt grind at least5 lvls on just mobs.  still tons of stuff to kill with repeatable quests in NE atzels approach.  I dont even do the villas.

So your solution to him being tired of grinding is to shut up and grind.  Man its a good thing you don't make games, you'd have like 5 masochists playing the ones you made.

Let see here are your options:

DDO - you already said too instanced.

CoX - also fairly instanced

AoC - Also heavily instanced and you should wait for a trial anyway

Tabula Rasa - instanced about like EQ2, lacks RPG diverity

Neocron - kind of like tabula rasa, much better RPG diversity but old, low pop, and clunky

Jumpgate - old and low pop but pure skill space flight simulator

Planetside - old FPS mostly PvP

Unfortunately you won't find another experience like CoH for grouping. 

Almost everything else has a static, class role, forced grouping model.  They think it encourages grouping and don't realize how much it actually ruins grouping.

There is grouping in say DDO but it of the forced grouping variety.  The only difference between DDO and WoW as far as grouping in concerned is that DDO really punishes the soloers badly.  Its not anywhere as fluid or easy as CoX and you get the same role BS too.

Sadly you are stuck with the forced grouping model.  They all shoehorn the groups slots and balance everything around a particular size group with particular classes.  The only question is whether they force the grouping by only giving you the good equipment if you run an instance designed for a group but otherwise have ok solo play or whether you simply can't jack outside of a group like DDO or old school EQ1.

I get tired of CoX quite often as it can get tedious.  Unfortunately the grouping setup in other games is just confining and depressing.  Its especially depressing when you consider that what they do actually hurts grouping but all the people who play the other games are convinced its the only way to have any grouping at all.  All they do is look at WoW which uses a forced grouping model and point at how the solo play interferes.  Of course WoW's model is whacky the damage is already done by the forced grouping model they borrowed from EQ1.  The only reason to group in EQ1 or WoW is because they punish you if you don't.  The only thing WoW did was to realize punishing people severly makes them sick of your game.

Basically you are SOL if you want a game that actually creates a positive reason to group other than CoX.

Originally posted by Ascension08

As with every combat system it's going to get "boring" or seem stale after a while. I don't necessarily think it's a step backwards in the genre and the intention was good...to try to immerse you in the fight more than an auto-attack + skill system. But as a Warr, let me just say you hack and slash and spam.

Yeah you have to stance dance a bit to use certain abilities, but it's charge --> hamstring --> MS MS MS MS MS MS MS MS, throwing in some slams. I'd rather have a combat system with an auto-attack + abilities, but the abilities would have to focus on position, timing, other factors like that. It's frustrating when you can't use Victory Rush because they feared you and the 20 sec. window ran out. That prevents spamming and makes combat more in-depth...

In my opinion of course.

I don't find DDO's combat boring, I have a number of other problems with the game.  But I find that the combat itself stays pretty fun.

I replace it with not playing.

Or sometimes alcohol.

In regards to LOTRO.  It did have a very polished launch, but its main downfall is/was 2 fold:

a) it lacked diveristy in content, somewhat handled now but its too late now.

b) it lacks diversity in the classes

This is by far the most important difference between WoW and LOTRO. 

WoW had significant talent tress on launch, they needed tweaking and balancing but they were there.

WoW had at least two areas for each side and at least 2 instances for each 10 level span.

The biggest complaints for LOTRO were lack of content and lack of interest due to these things.  Diversity is extremely important for RPGs and MMORPGs in particular.  The systems themselves are fairly predictable so you need the diversity to offset that.

Without some sort spice like that an MMORPG becomes rather boring even its smooth.

AoC is not smooth on launch no matter what kind of PR lies they keep putting out.  And their RPG diversity exists but is crippled by the beta state and lack of any kind of QA on things.

Like Fiontar said in his post it takes both aspects to be big.   LOTRO only had one aspect.  I would say that lack of polish is probably worse since it also gives you a bad reputation.  Since Funcom already has a suspect reputation I would say their situation is somewhat worse than Turbine's.  Especially since Turbine can rightfully blame Microsoft for half the problem with AC2.

Errrr Jumpgate is like Eve?  In some ways maybe sorta, but since one is an RPG and the other is an actual flight simulator. 

You gotta admit its apples and oranges.  If a person thinks Jumpgate classic and Eve play the same way then they are literally certifiably insane.

Its like saying Master of Orion and Tie fighter play the same way because they sci-fi space games.

Originally posted by Dailus

I am really loving monks so far, but to tell you the truth I have yet to use a finishing move because the mob is dead before I get it off. I am only 4th level right now so I hope this changes down the road when the mobs have more hit dice.

-Dailus

Did you go dark path or light path?

I went light so I use the 3 x light finsiher quite often.  But most other finishers are rare or never used.

Note: I do not use the block and attack thing. I dunno if that is a bug.  But it seems like one.  If you block and fire off the attack you use no KI and can charge yourself for a finsiher.  Now if this is working as intended then things would be a good bit different.

Originally posted by Slythe

 I'm surprised that you were able to select that name, in some mmorpg's you cant have a name that an NPC in the world has.  But then again he's just a minor boss so that's probably why.

Yeah that is funky usually most games don't let this happen.  Especially games with PvP so that you can't impersonate NPC's.

Little dodgy.

Originally posted by Grunties

Originally posted by Zorvan

 As for the sieges and stuff, we never even saw those in closed beta, much less open beta. We were told the same thing as the open beta players, that they were going to be held back until launch to "surprise" us.

Surprise.

 

I'm really hoping that this changes the way gamers think about NDA's. Funcom did not use its NDA to keep the game fresh or exciting for subscribers but to actually hide the real state of the game, to hide the problems it was having and the content that wasnt actually implemented by release.

Seeing an NDA still up close to release should be an instant red flag of deceit. I was expecting it but there are a lot of people that were too young or new to mmos to realize it. Maybe that will change now.

AO people were repeatedly ringing alarm bells about the way Funcom used NDA's well before the AoC Beta.

Originally posted by Niblix

Should of added another option: "I had fun at level 1-20"

Best part of the game was the first 20 levels in Tortage*

*OMFG did he just say he had fun in AoC?

No, the best part of the game is the first 20 levels. I added 'fun' because of the topic!

 

edit: Voted peaches btw, I love peaches.

No that should be a separate poll.  Its much more interesting to see the this and then do that poll.  Look like its skewing to 1/3 fun 2/3 not fun.

Then if you did the 1-20  I bet it'd be like 3/4 fun 1/4 not fun.  Says a lot .  I am not exactly sure what the difference but its obviously "Kind of a Big deal".

Originally posted by funnylumpy

Originally posted by gestalt11

Originally posted by funnylumpy

Originally posted by Reborn17

The hate is inversely proportional to the hype especially for almost $100 a pop. The ultra high expectations the marketing mavens at Funcom created pre-release turn to  venomous hatred when you realize you have been lied to.

 

no people created an illusion by themselves of a perfect game.. I followed up on the stuff FC announced and they didn't actually lie to people. Yeah they promise to deliver a lot of things which was broken or didn't work properly.. I don't remember them saying they will release a top bug free game without any problems... people are mostly themself to blame if they really thought that this is going to be problem free or without any bugs.

You lied to yourself when people know from past releases of any games that things is not what you expect. and all games is delivered with broken stuff or bugged.

But I mean if it makes you feel better to tell yourself they lied because it wasn't up to your expectations I recon it works for you.

If people had some kinda of brain capacity no offense you should be better than just to go off buy a game expecting it to be whatever you expect of it.

But some people have hard time learning from earlier releases of games.

Do a survey 1st.. and if you haven't been admitted to beta testing of a certain game you should wait until there is a trial for the game so you can try it out.

And this goes for everyone always be critic to any games it might not be what you think or hope it to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come on man.  People spent >$100 upgrading computer in anticipation of AoC having DX10 that is in addition to all the costs of AoC itselft.  No one knew DX10 was out of the build until a day or two before release.  They hyped DX10 as a major selling points for over a YEAR.

 

I did not buy this game.  I have not spent one red cent on this game.  I did not believe any of their hype.  But even I was astounded to see that DX10 was not in the game. 

 

And anyone who spent extra money to upgrade their computer for these features has every right to be upset and angry.  I personally would have been more cautious.

 

But to sau that Funcom is in no way responsible or culpable or did nothing wrong.  That is just way past the bounds of reason in my mind.  Those people got screwed.  Plain and simple.  Yes caution would have prevented that getting screwed but that in no way excsues Funcom.  Far from it; its actually more damning.

 

Actually I disagree if people are so blind that they upgrade their pc and stuff without knowing any facts it's on their own cape. And FC didn't focus on the bad sides of a game who would do that? I mean of you got something running around up there you would know it's not how you sell yourself.

I don't say that FC didn't do anything wrong, but they never lied they just did choose as all software companies do to exclude the negative things about the game. Not telling is not the same as lying.

These people screwed themselves plain and simple.. in the age with internet and computers all over people should be more sceptical.

I would expect people to be naive and not knowing better if they never toched a computer but if you have been playing games for a while which most likely 99% of the gamers who signed up for AoC is I would suspect they would be more aware... Obivously they weren't and now they're crying because they think they got screqwed over because they bought something which isn't what they expected.

People create their own perspective and percive things differently and I must say I'm amazed that there is so many people falling for hypes over and over again..

I don't make excuses for any game company and don't protect them but people need to be able to have at least a tad of thought before jumping over the cliff.

FC focused on the things that worked on their press conferences. So for people using computer you have a responsiblity for your own choices.

No one forced people to go buy AoC it was a free choice and when it doesn't work as people expected within weeks of release.

It's actually sad to see that people which have been playing so much games are so easily hooked on a hype and most of the hype is created by the players themselves and rumours which isn't confirmed even.

 

I think that you have a very narrow definition of "lying".  A very narrow definition that is not widely accepted.

You say the following:

Not telling is not the same as lying.

Isn't this generally called a lie by omission?  Because that is what I call it. 

If you can't agree that is a lie by omission then I suppose we will have to leave it at that and agree to disagree.  Since we will probably never get past that fundamental disagreement.

However I maintain that I, and people who agree with me, are funadmentally being reasonable when we consider Funcom dishonest even though you and I do not agree on what is lie.  Even if you do not agree, it is at least within the realm of being reasonable for me say I consider them dishonest.  I mean I am not just stuff out of my ass like people do about a lot of other games (especially if SOE is involved).

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by gestalt11

Yeah an aquaintance of mine who is not resubbing mentioned this as one of his big pet peeves.

 

He is a software developer and mentioned that stuff like made it clear to him they had no idea what they were doing from a programming standpoint.   I just laughed.  But he was kind of amazed.  He is a bit less of a skeptical person than i am.

 

That's not a programming problem but a game design one.

It is quite obvious their underlying RPG system is not well thought out... if it exists as a system at all. Most probably it is a fine spider's web of mutually incompatible arbitrary "hot-fix" mechanics that cannot be easily repaired without critically endangering the whole structure.

Meh... did they have anyone to design the system at all? This is an incredibly complex area of game design and there are pen-and-paper systems out there that have been evolving through trial-and-error for DECADES and yet are pretty far from perfection. Can't believe they thought it unimportant enough to leave its implementation to AFTER the release when it would probably "fix itself".

For an old time gamer like me it is really irritating to see those new "RPG"s use primitive and broken systems wrapped in shiny graphics and "content"... however Funcom is going a bit too far - RELEASING a "RPG" game with the very defining feature of a RPG - its RPG system - almost completely missing.

*shakes head and heads back into the forest, muttering uninteligible curses under his breath*

 

Um well in a technical sense they are not the same, but from a design standpoint they actually are essentially the same thing.  Software engineering or RPG design, the design aspects share the same principles and not following good practices causes the same problems.

In the end you could call them all subsets of Systems Engineering if you like.  But either way the important part is designing a system is designing a system.  If you want to separate say DB design from RPG design that is fine but they really share the same underlying principles even if they have different goals.

Basically it was clear to him that they are not following good practices and the gigangtic conceptual ball of tangled wires they inevitably occurrs from such things will bite them in the ass very quickly.  Having played AO a bit he simply couldn't believe they would be so stupid.  Of course he did not know that AO had possibly the worst launch of any MMORPG so I informed him of that and he didn't really know what to say. 

I guess because he is a bit idealistic and doesn't really believe there are a lot of hacks out there.  And good design is really the exception not the rule.