All Posts by gestalt11

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Originally posted by PB&J

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Originally posted by gestalt11

I dunno its hard for me to say because the term "hardcore" gets thrown around in rather silly ways.  For some its significant losses, which most certainly has.  For others its just serious timesink/reward cycles.  You must raid for 6 hours or you aren't hardcore etc.  Plus they also get smooshed together like they are related.

However I don't fully agree abotu the ISK grind.  I think that is true for large corporation need for resources, but individually you can earn quite a good amount of money causually by doing missions.

Now I will admit there is an active lobby in Eve that doesn't like the fact that people are making good money mission running in empire space, but I don't think they are that powerful.

I do agree that this site has an active lobby for "hardcore" but I really don't think its the majority, at least that is not the sense I get from various threads here. 

Frankly hardcore has been consistently "nerfed" since before MMOs even existed.  MUDs started nerfing Death penalties before EQ was ever coded.  And the trend is just continuing.  When my old MUD nefered the death penalty from 1/3 of total lifetime xp to 1/4 of total life time xp, 80% of the people just breathed a sigh of relief, although there were 20% that didn't like it. 

Same thing happened on the Auto Assault boards at release, you got this Death Penalty lobby that got shouted down by a majority.

It is a little freaky how consistent it is.

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EVE missions are a timesink. They are fun at the beginning but they are so repetitive that it quicly becomes a borning grind for cash or items. How many times do I need to save the damsel?

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand why people love EVE. But the game itself is not well rounded and does not belong as the top game. People that like EVE like it for one reason, corporation warfare. It is rated the top game on this site due to this one specfic feature of the game. Open ended PvP with harsh death penalties. I hope it lives a long life because people that like this sort of thing in a game do deserve to have it stay viable.

The reason that the hardcorish nature of MMOG's is changing is that "hardcore" games just don't sell well enough to make a good profit. A company looking to maximize profits is going to make a game that has broad appeal. EVE is not one of thoe games. WoW is. And it also the reason EVE is rated the top game on this site. It is popular with gamers that like their games harsh, a.k.a MMORPG.com gamers.

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Originally posted by Obraik

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Originally posted by gestalt11

Are there any games besides Neocron that actually have drugs in them and cause bad effects when the drugs where off (blurry vision/stumbling/death)?

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In SWG, after Spice (Star Wars term for drugs) wears off you will suffer a debuff that removes some of your health and action.

Oh, and my vote goes to SWG :P

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Ah that's something at least.  This is what kinda gets me about most MMOs though.  In Neocron drugs actually have a more "real" effects.  The more drugs you take the more fuzzy the screen, if you take enough you can barely read chat text and you may stumble backwards/sidewards while running/walking.

Its real effects not just some debuff.  It just seems that most of these MMOs might as well almost not have a graphics engine.  But its even more profound than that.  On a MUD I used to play drinking alcohol slurred your speech and losing a foot made you transfer rooms slower(ie move slower).  Hell on that MUD you could take LSD and occasional you would have a nightmarish bad trip that made you catatonic for a while and left you completely drained.

These games, they are more hollow than even some text games.

Then I see Neocron and they have the things that made that text game more "real".  Drugs with "real" effects, falling damage hurts your feet and makes you go slow, walls you can bounce stuff off (like a grenade).  Neocron was released in 2002.  Why aren't these newer games building on these things?  Why are they worse and not better?  Or other aspects that have been in graphic games for a decade.

Why is a 4 year old buggy-ass game made by some half-ass german company (Neocron) way cooler in this repsect than WoW, a game that is made by a company well known for quality (Blizzard)?

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Originally posted by PB&J

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Originally posted by gestalt11

I don't think your characterization of Eve as a hardcore game is accurate.  At least in the sense people use "hardcore" when talking about say Vanguard.

You could never login to Eve except to assign training (literally maybe 5 hours of time over a year) and have a pretty good skill set going, and with those skills you could run missions for a fairly negligible amount of time to get a pretty well tricked out ship wise.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but a lot of Eve people actually play the game because it can be done non-hardcore and still be quite competitive.  That doesn't mean going all hardcore doesn't have its advantages etc.  And Eve may attract a hardcore crowd as well.  But I think games like Vanguard are more of a magnet for the crowd you are talking about.

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I agree with your assessment 100%. The training of skills is not hardcore. The results of PvP death  can be catastrophic which is why I called it hardcore. Losing your ship and possibly all or part of your skill set is pretty severe. I know that insurance is in game to ease the death penalty, but nonetheless the death penalty is severe. This is VERY attractive to people that frequent this site.

Also, the grind for resources and isk is hardcore. Nothing about gaining isk in that game can even be remotely compared to "fun".

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Originally posted by nomadian
"but the thing is, I am NOT talking about economics. I am talking about the quality of the game. and I wonder what this decent teacher wil tell me. "Look son, millions of people love to play WoW, it received the highest ratings, the most awards, and the most players, but its not the best game, because I say so"

Good thing you think Harry Potter is the best book eh. And most awards? Your source?

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Originally posted by PB&J
It is not rated higher becaues the hardcore game players that come to this site won't give it a high rating. This is because it is popular with the masses. And anything that is popular with the masses isn't cool. Therefore, the ratings are lowered as a result.

PvE content in EVE is non-existant. The game, however, is hardcore and this means a lot of people from mmorpg (hardcore gamers) are attracted to it thus its high rating.

Guild Wars while a good game really isn't even an MMOG so I'm not sure why its even listed. It is a fun game however.

Ryzom has no PvE and no meaninful PvP. It is a "sandbox" game. Its a sit and chat type of game. Its a niche game and attracts more of the role players. A more mature audience that is likely to frequent this web site and thus drive up the score.

EQII and DAoC are both good games. However, the PvP in EQII is not good. When you look at the top 100 PvP list and over 85% are from the scout class you may have a balance problem. In this game a single class type, the scout, is given access to not only stealth but also tracking and the ability to evac out of a fight if its not going well. The ultimate ganking class with no real counterpart. Also the PvP lacks any real meaning. Its just a run around and kill people type of PvP that brings little to the table. I'm getting off topic a bit but the PvP in this game is probably what is driving up the score among the MMORPG crowd.

DAoC is flat out good. Good PvE and good PvP. One of the best MMOG's ever made. It has attractive PvP to hardcore gamers and deserves to be even higher on the list.

CoV and CoV are really fun games. The PvE is thin and the PvP is fairly unbalanced but the game itself is pretty fun. I would imagine if it was more of a success (not to say its unsuccessful) then it would fall off the top 7 list. It is just unpopular enough to stay trendy with the MMORPG crowd.

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by gestalt11
First off.  I am not a fan.  I do not root for any of these games.  I don't care. 

Secondly you assume I am a layman.  I am not.  I am a professional.

Third you need to either take or retake a course on economics and markets if you think such thigns are indicative of quality.

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Really? I was under the impression you were a fan of MMORPG gaming?

Well mr Professional, I geuss you would be happy to show me some of your professional reviews?

Oh, I have to re-take a course on economics and markets? sure mate, sure.

I think it would be better if you learned the diffrence between "Not so good game" and "Not for me". there is a huge diffrence. If you have any better ways to prove that a diffrent MMO then WoW is the best, then by all means, post it here. although I seriously doubt it will be more then: "I don't like this and I like that feature in game A better"

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Originally posted by sly220

Let me give you my take on WoW its WoW this and WoW that alot of ppl are tired of all this WoW stuff....

WOW the inavator of MMOs or how about WoW this many ppl on at one time just gets kinda old.. thats Y its not one of the BEST MMOs is the easiest MMO

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by gestalt11

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by gestalt11

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Its the most popular, so its hated the most. its that simple. WoW truly is the mmorpg today with the highest quality. this is proven by the facts its the mmorpg with the highest reviews, most awards, and biggest subscriber base.

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Highest quality? That is certainly not proven and is certainly quite debatable.  I think reasonable poeple can agree that parts of it are quite high quality for an MMO.  But there really are a number of other games that have just as high or higher quality in other aspects.  And there are a few games that rival it quality wise in areas where it is strong.

Eve and Ryzom certainly have higher quality Sandbox elements.  And, in my opinion, EQ2 is a higher quality game with more features as things currently stand as far as the treadmill instance run games like WoW/EQ2 go.

I don't play either WoW or EQ2 anymore, but I had fun with both.  I think EQ2 is all around a higher quality game.  Its pvp is also much more thrilling than WoW's.

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It has been given these ratings for a reason. lets start with the fact that every mmorpg has downpoints. sure WoW might not give you as much freedom as EVE or Ryzom, but it really makes up for that with the PVE content. not to mention there is plenty of content. EVE and Ryzom might give more freedom, but the PVE, to say it boldly, downright sucks. then, as a reviewer, you have to make a decision what is more important. PVE gameplay (which makes up for a large portion of every mmorpg)  or Freedom that is not that great if you take a closer look at it.

reviewers know what the heck they are talking about. same for the award givers. the 7 million subscriber base proves that those reviewers were right. sure you might enjoy game A more then WoW, or maybe you prefer game B, but that is all opinion. reviewers have to look at the quality parts of the game.

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So my review is opinion, but the reviewers who agree with you are right because a lot of people bought it.  That is silly on many levels.

 Secondly it should be obvious that you can't make a blanket statement about quality.  Comparing Eve and WoW is apples and orange and if you really want to say one is higher wuality than the other you will have a really really hard time shwoing it.  Eve is very high quality.  Very high.  Both art/design and techinically.  The integration of web browser tech and player web pages is really high quality elegant design.  WoW's got nothing like it.

Look, I played both EQ2 and WoW for months.  I have no axe to grind.  EQ2 is a better game in both PvE and PvP.  Better graphics, better community, better response from developers, better trends in development, better guild features (levels, banks etc), tons of content, way way way better crafting.   The only thing WoW beats it on is the quest system and some better humor (like mechanical yeti quest).

EQ2 is objectively a better game on many levels as it currently stands.  And the reviews you mention are not exactly all reliable look at the recent WoW endgame review on this site and then read the comments.  Its sad.

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You are a fan. its their job. go figure.

even IF a proffesional reviewer don't like the game because its not for him (or her) he still has to give it a high rating and point out the good points, because its his/her JOB. WoW is the ONLY mmorpg that has been praised to heaven in about every magazine/website/program dedicated to games.  the majority has spoken, World of Warcraft is number one.


reviews and subscriber base is currently the only way to compare the quality of games.f diffrent people like diffrent things, its that simple.

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Originally posted by battleaxe22
People on this boards don't play/like wow
so u compare foood with a video-game ...wow u are smart ! :D
7milion subs ...can't your read ....asia has the same sub plan as eu and us ...yes .the guys who play in inet cafes have acc's just like me ..some people here play wow from a inet cafe and they pay every hour they play + ACCount+ the monthly fee        



now for my personal opinion on the matter : Eve online is a screensaver with a monthly fee/
L2P and try not to flame wow because it's more popular then the game u are playing

KTHXBAI     &  L2FACEtehFACTS   

sry for the trash talk but im actualy trying to point out that comparing eve to wow is like  comparing wow to mcdonald's

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Originally posted by KillerJimmy

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Originally posted by Souldrainer
Because a lot of us have gotten to 60, and feel that although 1-59 game is good, the suck that is 60 and the lack of decent PVP are enough to bring a good game down.

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Here, here! lol It's so true it hurts. I had so much fun 1-59, I still say it was one of the most complete feeling MMOs I've ever played in that respect. I raided a lot, got my teir 1 set and my guild was first on our server for almost all MC encounters. But that all was such weak content, that I ended up with 3 level 60 characters (and a 40 and a couple 20s). "PvP" grind? Did that too, got the big mace of doom for my main. Got the black dagger for my rogue alt...

If you really are honest and look at the ratings, it is doing really well. I mean: 8.8 graphics?! Are you kidding me?! 8.8 10 years ago, sure...freaking 1-2 now. Performance/Lag 7.9?! huh? Did these people play on heavy or full servers? Clunky kid graphics and good systems lag so bad they fall into a pit in IF? Little character customization and that is the lag? 7.9 nothing. Community 7.3? lol The WoW community is the worst, most self-destructive/self-hating mmo community I have seen. If I ever see another one like it, I'll probably quit on those grounds alone. Sure there are great guilds and people in the game, but the it's still hard to get past the...the overwhelming crowd attitude. Fun 8.6? I guess I can let that go, since it was such a great game pre-60 and pre-BG. I just the the design evolution has been a downward spiral. I could go on...

Also, the rest of the WoW "community" (i.e. the ones who like raiding or faction grinding) are still playing and probably can't be bothered to come rate it "uber 10" accross the board.

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by gestalt11

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Its the most popular, so its hated the most. its that simple. WoW truly is the mmorpg today with the highest quality. this is proven by the facts its the mmorpg with the highest reviews, most awards, and biggest subscriber base.

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Highest quality? That is certainly not proven and is certainly quite debatable.  I think reasonable poeple can agree that parts of it are quite high quality for an MMO.  But there really are a number of other games that have just as high or higher quality in other aspects.  And there are a few games that rival it quality wise in areas where it is strong.

Eve and Ryzom certainly have higher quality Sandbox elements.  And, in my opinion, EQ2 is a higher quality game with more features as things currently stand as far as the treadmill instance run games like WoW/EQ2 go.

I don't play either WoW or EQ2 anymore, but I had fun with both.  I think EQ2 is all around a higher quality game.  Its pvp is also much more thrilling than WoW's.

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It has been given these ratings for a reason. lets start with the fact that every mmorpg has downpoints. sure WoW might not give you as much freedom as EVE or Ryzom, but it really makes up for that with the PVE content. not to mention there is plenty of content. EVE and Ryzom might give more freedom, but the PVE, to say it boldly, downright sucks. then, as a reviewer, you have to make a decision what is more important. PVE gameplay (which makes up for a large portion of every mmorpg)  or Freedom that is not that great if you take a closer look at it.

reviewers know what the heck they are talking about. same for the award givers. the 7 million subscriber base proves that those reviewers were right. sure you might enjoy game A more then WoW, or maybe you prefer game B, but that is all opinion. reviewers have to look at the quality parts of the game.

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I consider a persistent shared world a requirement for being a conventional MMO.  Technically the acronym doesn't state that but it is fairly commonly accepted.

Therfore GW is not what I call an MMO.  Its still a better game than many MMO and is a great idea for cooperative play.


I really wish people wouldn't even assoicated it with MMOs.  It confuses people and lumps it in with a bunch of crappy limiting stereotypes.

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Its the most popular, so its hated the most. its that simple. WoW truly is the mmorpg today with the highest quality. this is proven by the facts its the mmorpg with the highest reviews, most awards, and biggest subscriber base.

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Highest quality? That is certainly not proven and is certainly quite debatable.  I think reasonable poeple can agree that parts of it are quite high quality for an MMO.  But there really are a number of other games that have just as high or higher quality in other aspects.  And there are a few games that rival it quality wise in areas where it is strong.

Eve and Ryzom certainly have higher quality Sandbox elements.  And, in my opinion, EQ2 is a higher quality game with more features as things currently stand as far as the treadmill instance run games like WoW/EQ2 go.

I don't play either WoW or EQ2 anymore, but I had fun with both.  I think EQ2 is all around a higher quality game.  Its pvp is also much more thrilling than WoW's.

That bunny looks pretty vicisous and all he has for guns is a basket and some flowers.  I think he's in trouble.

Considering ther results of your poll, a Star Wars MMO where the jedi wore Crocodile Hunter khakis instead of those robes would be run away success.  Hopefully when jedi took damage they would yell out "Crikey! He's a little cranky!"

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Originally posted by Elnator

None :(

None of the upcoming games really interest me.  I hope Darkfall lives up to the hype... and I really hope WAR does too.  I hope Simutronics can do in the MMO genre what they did in the text based RPG genre.....

But recent releases have jaded me.  I don't expect much from the Genre anymore.  It has been stagnant for years.

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