All Posts by Dundee

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All Posts by Dundee - 186 found

	Smed speaks again 2/11/07 11:02 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 6040, Replies 185
Originally posted by haxxjoo Originally posted by Dundee Originally posted by haxxjoo I love how they say pre-cu is impossible and never list a reason why. I'd like that responsibly addressed before the discussion could continue. Is that really to much to ask? Impossible means "It would not be profitable." So the NGE version with less then half the population of pre-cu is profitable? I guess in SOE logic that is a valid expression of impossible. Ok, I have no inside knowledge,. But when a suit says something is impossible, he means "unprofitable". Obviously it's possible. Here's the thing, though: It takes a team to support the game - even if you aren't making any changes, and if you aren't then the game will slowly die. Put up a new codebase and you need another team to support that. So pre-CU servers need to be profitable enough to at least pay for themselves: for a support team just for them. So that's two teams, unless you wipe NGE servers. (What? Just tell all the current players that the game is radically changing, maybe give them a respec, plus a special painting for the former-jedi, when their class is removed as an option... Could one company even do that do its players twice?) This is the codebase which, when they had it, lead to this conclusion: With the game the way it was we knew we would never be able to attract enough people to really keep SWG viable as a business. -J Smedley So what you are suggesting is to double the operating costs, put up a codebase that wasn't "viable as a business" before, and believe that all the players you've pissed-off will just forgive-n-forget, delete their 70th level Shamans, and rush back bringing all their new friends with them? Annnnd, you can't just roll back, but also have to re-implement every critical thing - every credit dupe, client-crash, server-crash, town-delete bug fixed since ever. Then the old combat system still has issues (granted, they can be fixed without a total rewrite) and there's still a lack of mid- to high-end content... oh, and you've just reverted back to not having content-creation tools... In my opinion, it's beyond not profitable; it's a waste of time. You're all way better off trying to get aspects of the game you liked re-implemented .
	I think SOE we're right with "Vocal Minority" 2/11/07 10:28 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 3062, Replies 73
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Dundee Keep in mind, In this forum, you hear nothing but how much everyone loved the old game. And though SWG was successful, it was not outrageously so. Lots of people did not like it. Lots of people only liked it for a little while. But this poses a question. What were the failings? The numbers will obviously remain secret - but what were the indicators? Box sales not reaching targets? Monthly turnaround too big? Subscription periods too short? What were the issues expressed by exit polls? Were bugs ever considered to be a detriminial factor? Animations were always state-of-the-art. Yet CU and NGE both wiped them completely, only to be put back at a later date. What about experience gains? Designed to go in with NGE, but also slipped into once before, only to be reverted instantly. These are all changes that were reverted, hinting that they weren't intended or considered. Were the analysts wrong then? Have they been misinterpreting the numbers wrong since day one? And if some of such changes were put in inadvertedly due to insufficient development time, weren't the development priorities wrong? And above all: What would make a succesful SW MMO? Can there even be one? Who shot first, Han or Greedo? Who's better captain, Kirk, Sisco, Picard, Janeway or Archer? Is it really possible to make an IP conversion that will please everyone? With STO the IP curse will rear its ugly head once again. Shouldn't this be expected from the moment the license contract was signed? Shouldn't in the end the gamers and players be the target market for MMORPG (we are, afterall, talking about MMORPG, not KOTOR, GTA or DnD). Weren't the changes ultimately made for the fabled mythical audience - one which never materialized? You know... I'm not sure which, if any, of those questions I can answer without being sued. I wish game companies could be more open about the nitty-gritty, ugly business details: not just open about game design choices, but also (as a hypothetical example) come out and say, "Here's where we are, and here's where we're headed. Lights go out here, and this is what we're going to do to change direction." Or whatever. I think the fans would step up to help, like the PlanetSide players did - entirely on their own - when they decided PS wasn't getting the marketing love it deserved and took it upon themselves to promote the game (with comparable if not better results than most marketing campaigns). SWG was a successful SW MMO. It would have been more successful given more time in development, a smaller design team early in development, a creative director to replace Raph when he went to San Diego, a different jedi system even if that meant changing the time period and/or advancing the timeline, a larger content team, a smaller systems team, a balance between loot and crafting, hell a million other things. Even the NGE would have been more successful (and a very different set of changes, I imagine), if current players had been included in the design and development. Even if that meant making a less-fun, less-radical new game, it would have been a million times better to kill the anti-marketing (and a billion times better to have the marketing reinforced with current-player endorsement). But those are easy to spot with 20/20 hindsight. Possible wrong, too. I mean, potentially, player-dev collaborative design might have resulted in very little change and angry players, and even more anti-marketing starting before anything was even out of development. I think I'd have to consider that "and damned if you don't" might be the alternative, depending on what sort of relationship you have with your players. Thankfully, not my call, that. Annnnnyway... Adapting IPs from movies, television, or books to MMOs sucks. The dramatic elements which make the stories work in the original medium, often don't work for MMOs. The Chosen One in all its incarnations, for example. Sometimes the same is true for turning a novel into a screenplay, but Hollywood is allowed to make whatever changes are necessary. Game developers are not. We're just not taken that serious. As for target markets... nope. For a SW MMO, Star Wars fans are the target. There's some overlap with MMO players, but I think you have to aim for the bigger demographic: not just because there are more of them, but because non-SW MMO fans have plenty of non-SW MMO options, and because there are also some MMO players in the SW fan group who just don't know it yet. Just until launch: then you have to work on the game you've got for the players you've got. I sitll believe that even radical changes are possible, with the cooperation and consent of the current players. But we won't see anything as radical as the NGE ever again anyway.
	Smed speaks again 2/11/07 7:14 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 6040, Replies 185
Originally posted by haxxjoo I love how they say pre-cu is impossible and never list a reason why. I'd like that responsibly addressed before the discussion could continue. Is that really to much to ask? Impossible means "It would not be profitable."
	Perma-Death Re-evaluated 2/11/07 1:51 AM
General Discussion » The Pub at MMORPG.COM Viewed 2562, Replies 64
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar You cannot have an MMO with permadeath and expect people to: A) keep playing after they have died if they care about their character or B) keep paying for a game when they don't care about their character. Doesn't the average player have several characters in any given game already though? Suppose you have ten characters that you play at different times for different reasons: different level-ranges of adventure, different classes/roles, different sorts of challenges. That is, when you're in the mood for X then you play character A. When you're in the mood for Y then you play character B. Maybe there's one you play more than others, but still... you're attached to all of them, right? Isn't character death in that case about 1/10th the impact as if you only had one character? What if the main character, the one other players really considered to be "you" or your "main", sat home on a throne and never risked perma-death: sending those other nine characters out to adventure and risk their lives for his advancement?
	I think SOE we're right with "Vocal Minority" 2/11/07 1:30 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 3062, Replies 73
Originally posted by Obee So your blog post, explaining how the NGE came about, wasn't you "talking about 'the NGE'"? Gotcha. Parts of the NGE had been underway for quite a while already. The new tutorial, space station, "content path", and so on was the genesis: a subset of game data which could fit on a single CD. The genesis was that a lot of new eyeballs were about to see SWG for the first time. I was enthusiastic about that combat change. I was excited about all those new eyeballs seeing SWG for the first time, through the trial-CD and download offers from various places, those "but wait, there's more!" television commercials. Oh, there was hype to be caught-up in, and I got caught-up in it. Even though, back in the day, just post-launch or so, I really would have preferred fixing a couple little things with the original combat system and devoting resources to adding mid-to-high content. I would have preferred launching six months later than we did. But the people who were paying the bills wanted to make those decisions. They didn't even ask me. Keep in mind, In this forum, you hear nothing but how much everyone loved the old game. And though SWG was successful, it was not outrageously so. Lots of people did not like it. Lots of people only liked it for a little while. Don't think the design team writes a memo saying "I just saw the neatest thing! So let's make this into a different game, and see if everyone not playing the current game will like it!" And then that happens along with a big marketing campaign, too. That just doesn't happen, in spite of the plethora of old SWG vets reposting my Shenanigans article.
	I think SOE we're right with "Vocal Minority" 2/10/07 7:58 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 3062, Replies 73
Originally posted by Obee Well, we now have two FPS MMOs to point towards failure of the idea. FPS doesn't lend itself well to a persistant state world. That isn't to say that someone might won't come up with a successful MMOFPS. I personally don't think a poorly implemented version of Doom's combat system was more enjoyable than even the CU system (and yes, the NGE combat system was poorly implemented when it went live and still hasn't been properly fixed). By the way, in Diablo you had to click on a MOB to have a chance to hit it, with the NGE, you would hit a MOB as long at it was within you targeting reticle. The NGE combat system is much more like a FPS than Diable since you have no chance of missing your target if you have it under the reticle. The NGE as released was a FPS. Also, from your now deleted blog post (deleting blog posts does make it look like you are trying to hide something), there is no indication the rest of the NGE changes would have occured if the combat system hadn't changed. I realise you were setting yourself up to take some measure of credit if the NGE had been successful, but your original blog post did make it seem like you were pushing the NGE, while others were, what it turns out to be, the voice of reason. As I said, I wasn't even talking about "the NGE".
	Perma-Death Re-evaluated 2/10/07 4:01 AM
General Discussion » The Pub at MMORPG.COM Viewed 2562, Replies 64
Originally posted by Ligner The issue with that idea is that MMORPGs aiming to make players play mainly one character as its supposed to be Role Playing game. How can you role play few at the time? Role playing isnt something you must do its simply how you feel in the world. When I log into the game and if it feels like being in different world then you're already role playing by imagining your self being elsewhere but around your computer. By allowing PD players will loose their connection with that imagined fantasy world when their character dies. Ah, well actually you wouldn't play many at once, just one at a time. Basically the same as having 8 character slots on a server: you choose one and go adventuring (and if you're like most players, all of your characters profit from your successes with any). But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
	I think SOE we're right with "Vocal Minority" 2/10/07 3:49 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 3062, Replies 73
Originally posted by Obee The fact that Planetside flopped so badly didn't give you pause that making SWG into an MMOFPS might not be the best idea in the world? Please keep in mind, at your current place of employment, that just because your company can do something, it doesn't mean they should. Hopefully someone will someday let us know who came up with the idea to remove most of the professions from SWG, and who decided to wait until the last expansion was released to announce they were gutting the game, and old fashioned stoning would be fun. Oh, it's more like Diablo than FPS combat. But anyway, FPS combat is exceptionally popular. I think it'd be a mistake to point at one FPS mmo as rock solid conclusive proof than FPS combat ought not be in MMOs. There are a million other confounding factors. If an MMO did everything else right, had FPS combat, then it would be a success even if FPS combat really is all wrong in all cases for MMOs (and people would say it proved just the opposite). So I guess I'm saying, "No." But then, I still think NGE-combat is better than CU. I don't expect everyone agrees, but ultimately the combat interface just barely registers on the scale of other changes made in the NGE. Conversion to classes, quest-loot displacing crafting, etc. were waaaay bigger changes than click to shoot.
	I think SOE we're right with "Vocal Minority" 2/10/07 3:26 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 3062, Replies 73
Originally posted by Daed710 Originally posted by Dundee Originally posted by DarthOlomew Pre-CUNGE is Coke Classic. More like RC. LMAO This is coming from one of the people that thought the NGE was a great idea? Sorry, but I value your opinion on SWG about as much as I value a warm glass of piss on a hot summer day. I mean, you are the guy that posted this lil' gem on his blog right?..... [snip for space] Yeh, I know you'd rather have those comments be swept under the rug, and have since deleted them from your blog, but Im sure you've realized by now that theres no rug big enough to fully hide your involvment in the biggest blunder of MMO history, the super-fun, starwarsy and iconic NGE. And come on, trolling the SWG Refugee forum? Kinda pitiful imo. Didnt you spit on us vets enough while you worked at SOE? Please crawl back under whatever bridge you live beneath these days. What that post was in reference to: I was looking at the NGE style combat - and just that, nothing else that changed with the NGE, not even the specific special abilities, etc. Just the click-to-shoot thing, and yes, I thought it great fun, especially compared to CU. 'Not here to spit on anyone! I'm a SWG vet too, you know?
	I think SOE we're right with "Vocal Minority" 2/10/07 12:29 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 3062, Replies 73
Originally posted by DarthOlomew Pre-CUNGE is Coke Classic. More like RC.
	Perma-Death Re-evaluated 2/10/07 12:15 AM
General Discussion » The Pub at MMORPG.COM Viewed 2562, Replies 64
Originally posted by bonobotheory Death could also have other meanings in a fantasy setting. Instead of passing into oblivion, never to be seen again, the character might leave some sort of legacy. Maybe the other characters could call on the spirits of the deceased (with the effect being dependent on the power of the dead character). Memorial plaques, statues, and graveyards are a must-have - let the best of the best be honored and remembered That's awesome... another big part of that "dream game" of mine. Sometimes I think this just a personal wishlist feature of my own that I just rationalize into being a vital component, so it's great to see someone else think it important. I'd want those estates to have catacombs and the like, listing all the fallen heroes. Definitely trophy halls and the like, especially as displays of the boons acquired for the estate. The feature I love the most though, is to seed the treasure tables with magic items named and given the lore of fallen heroes: so if Kallagian the Warrior had killed lots of trolls, maybe after he's dead and gone there's a sword out there called Kallagian's Trollslayer, with a history behind it which actually happened (except of course, the sword wasn't a magical troll slaying sword when Kallagian had it!). That's also the feature which makes database programmers weep.
	Perma-Death Re-evaluated 2/10/07 12:06 AM
General Discussion » The Pub at MMORPG.COM Viewed 2562, Replies 64
Originally posted by Pangaea Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals. I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it. The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all. Well here is the ideal that needs to change. 1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants. 2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling. Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have. 3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source. If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN I think you're clouding the issue by tossing-in some wishlist features which are actually unrelated to making perma-death workable. You start out spot-on with identifying the challenge: Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all. This issue is not addressed by changing what "it" is (levels, xp, skills, abilities, whatever): if your achievement is lost when your character dies, then death is going to be an exit-event for a lot of your players. Changing the achievement from Levels to Powers (or whatever) doesn't address the issue. Making the game "fun and never work" is simply going to be impossible, especially given a "start over" moment like permanent death. Assuming the character's advance in power, starting over means going back to the low-power areas/opponents you've done thousands of times before, "working" back to the new and interesting things you'd just discovered. That is, what was "fun" the first few thousand times will become "work"... Character Advancement without levels (spending xp for skills) doesn't change what's actually happening with levels... There's either no advancement of the character (tons of FPS's are like this), which enabled painless perma-death, but which also makes it meaningless. Or, there's advancement of the character, but with achievement largely stored elsewhere. Changing where achievement is stored from a character to a player's account, means that you could then allow a character to be lost without erasing the player's progress. Part of my "dream game" is one where players choose a type of character they like, get a stronghold, temple, tower, etc. with several characters (mostly of the type they like), and level-up those characters just a little bit each; while mostly advancing their estate with boons all of their characters may use. The core risk-vs-reward is to risk the little bit of advancement an individual character has made, to acquire a permanent boon for the estate.
	The best game currently in alpha/beta 2/09/07 11:48 PM
General Discussion » The Pub at MMORPG.COM Viewed 880, Replies 27
GameLoading, you can make that URL in your sig a link by changing it to this (in your profile): [url=http://gameloading.blogspot.com/]http://gameloading.blogspot.com/[/url]
	Future MMORPG that does not equal grind? 2/09/07 11:43 PM
General Discussion » The Pub at MMORPG.COM Viewed 241, Replies 6
Originally posted by Huntn I looked at some movies of WoW:TBC and as far as I can tell, it's the same ole grind in new settings. I realize this may be near impossible, but are there any MMORPGs in work that are not over reliant on collection/kill quests? I think we can expect a bit of both. The success of killing-monsters as a core activity means they'll continue to be made, and killing-monsters as a core feature means collection/kill quests. Some better disguised than others, but all really an excuse for some things to be killed. Character advancement expressed in terms of improved ability to kill monsters, so... same ol' game. But others, too. The success Second Life is reported to have means more social-oriented games will be made. I don't have much faith in their ability to deliver, so there's the danger you get invested (emotionally) in them and poof they get canceled... but it is possible someone will do a good one. Originally posted by Huntn that allow for a high percentage of solo play? of the quests that require parties, rely on small (10 or less) parties? High-percentage of solo play and small parties seems like a given, since WoW. Originally posted by Huntn are not overly reliant on instanced space? and even tougher- set in a dynamic environment? Naw, probably not... :) What is "overly reliant"? Also... what assumptions are you making about instanced spaces? There's the way that WoW uses them (elite quests) versus the way City Of H/V uses them (all missions, solo or group), versus the "public instances vs. private instances" of lots of games (CoH/V and EQ2 actually instance everything). Dynamic Environment is a ways off, IMO.
	What was your Favorite Pre-Cu Weapon and why? [1] [2] [3] [4] 12/21/06 3:50 PM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 787, Replies 31
I was Teras Kasi/Creature Handler (and before giving it up for more CH, I mastered Ranger, believe it or not). Had to use vibro knucklers for some things, but my favorite was really no weapon at all.
	Free AD supported SWG? 12/17/06 11:41 AM
Star Wars Galaxies » General Discussion Viewed 353, Replies 9
Originally posted by linuxgamer Someone posted on there that SOE already put ADs into Planetside. However, Planetside does not have a basic free version. When I play Anarchy Online, the Ads don't bother me one bit. It's freakin free! LOL PlanetSide Reserves, AKA the cannon fodder program.
	SOME consolidation for NGE haters... 12/06/06 12:11 PM
Star Wars Galaxies » SWG Veteran Refuge Viewed 2755, Replies 78
Thanks, iskareot. I appreciate the sentiment. I can't comment on ... well, anything. Really just shouldn't have poked my head in here at all, but I thought to at least apologize for the insensitive blogpost. Or actually at most, too, 'cause that's all I can do. Now I really do have to move on (figuratively, but also literally out of this forum before I get myself in trouble). I wish you all the best of luck.

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All Posts by Dundee

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All Posts by Dundee - 186 found