All Posts by Koltrane

PvP is definitely a good aspect of the game, but only when it is implemented properly.  I thought the original UO handled it miserably.  I know there are legions of players out there who pine away for the "pre-carebear" days of UO when no one could leave the city without getting slaughtered by teenagers who spent every waking moment playing and building their characters, but they have a different reality than me (and most adults).

Here's a good example of PVP:  Years ago I was playing NWN on AOL (this is the old gold box NWN, not the BioWare game) and I walked into a PvP area where two players were fighting golems.  They warned me to leave because I was crashing their fight.  They killed the golem and I leeched a bit.  They warned me again to leave.  I didn't.  They attacked.  I died.  That was a fair fight.  They outnumbered me and were more powerful characters, but they warned me and then confronted me head on.

Here's a bad example of PVP:  The other day I was playing Neocron, standing outside the military base with a sniper rifle targeting a warbot.   Looking through the scope, I could see nothing but the faraway mob.  A guy who is 15 levels higher than me comes up from behind, pulls out a high level rare weapon, kills me, then stands over my dead body and gloats.  In other words, he attacked a lower character who was occupied fighting a high level NPC opponent, gave no warning, and attacked from behind with a superior weapon.  This is a big accomplishment in his book.  It is pathetic and cowardly in mine. 

I guess my point is that it depends not only on the game, but the player community as well.  If you've got a bunch of children playing who love to build up and then grief lower levels, it stinks.  If you've got mature players who truly want a challenge, then it is a nice enhancement.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

Two greatly needed improvements!  Thanks a ton.

Now, here comes my highly unpopular suggestion:  How about resetting all game scores (not reviews, just scores), so those who have recently been stuffing the Rubies of Eventide ballot box will have to work harder.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

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Originally posted by Djin

Just like 100% of all MMORPGs at launch and in BETA.  Bugs, bugs and more bugs... and when any company goes live,  that's when the "real" testing starts.

As crazy as that sounds,  you can only start to fix things when 40,000 people start flooding the servers and not the 10,000 people in the BETA. (I'm just using any numbers for an example)

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I disagree, Djin.  While there are some problems that only become evident under a full user load, too many companies are using the "we can always patch it" excuse to rush product out the door.  Two recent examples are EVE and SWG.  Neither were ready when they went live.  My EVE client was still crashing to desktop on the last day of beta and content was almost nonexistent.  Worse, SWG by all accounts was horribly broken and content poor at launch.

A lot of the problems in these and other games are not ones that only manifested themselves when the servers were stressed.  Many of them were noted and logged in early beta.  There are many problems that not only can be fixed, but absolutely need to be fixed before a MMOG launches.  Some companies can overcome a bad launch and eventually deliver a decent game, as Funcom did with AO.  I don't think many others will duplicate this, however.  

What truly bothers me is that more and more it is becoming the norm for companies to ship incomplete MM games just to make a marketing date, and this from big companies who should know better (EA, SOE, UbiSoft).  Worse, the MMOG community is getting to the point where they not only anticipate, but actually expect a new game to be broken at launch.  By taking the attitude that, "they'll eventually fix it," we are enabling them as they continue to foist poorly tested buggy product onto the public.  With the sales of SWG and the faithful making excuses for them, why should SOE ever worry about getting it right?  Have you noticed that EQ2 is still hawking a release date of year end 2003 but hasn't started taking beta applications?  Not a good sign...

We (the MMOG community) should look at a MMOG as an investment, not just of money, but time as well.  Playing a MMOG takes a considerable amount of both, and to be dealing with glaring bugs 3 months out is absurd.  In fact, I would say it shows a modicum of contempt toward the players from the software company.  The only way they'll respect us is if we leave them hanging and let them know why.  Until we demand that they do better, expect more crummy launches and prolonged debugging sessions.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

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Originally posted by digitydarkman

koreans dont know what a good game is

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Maybe so, but I believe that Korea is the third largest computer/console game market in the world (behind the US and Japan).  I know that Starcraft is still huge there and there's a story (probably an urban legend) that a guy was whacked by the Korean Mafia after he pked the character of a mafioso in Lineage.  Also, I guy died in a Korean internet cafe earlier this year after a marathon gaming session.

Their taste may be iffy, but they sure do take their games seriously.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

EverQuest.  I know EQ had its problems, especially camping and farming and waiting for the $#&*^ BOAT!  Regardless, EQ was (and I think still is) the largest for a reason.  The array of races/classes has yet to be matched.  Each town was distinct and the zones were truly different.  There were good places for all levels to fight.  As soon as you got too high for one area, a new one was not too far away.

EQ has kept the gameplay fresh with new expansions.  I think they bootched it with Kunark by putting only one teleport point on the continent, but it was still great, as were Velious and Luclin (I quit after Luclin).

Other games have had some strong points, like DAoC's RVR, but no game has captured my attention and kept me faithful like EQ.  I truly miss playing it sometimes.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

When it comes to races, I would like to see a well balanced but truly diverse set of races, not just the same function for all races with different wrappings.  The best example I've seen of this was in StarCraft.  I realize that it was not a MMOG, but the Humans, Zerg and Protoss were all distinctly different with different advantages and disadvantages, but were pretty well balanced (I know some say the Zerg were better, but the balance was still pretty doggone good).

One thing EQ has done better than any MMOG I have seen is its massive catalog of equipment/weapons/armor/items.  Most of them also have a distinct look.  Part of the fun of getting a new rare chestplate or helm or staff, etc. is going to the common area and showing it off.  I remember scoring a Netted Kelp Tunic on a raid into Siren's Grotto on EQ and many people asking me what I was wearing.  A lot of games have gotten away from that aspect of the game.  Remember the first time you saw someone in a full set of Rubicite?

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

The Battlecruiser saga is legendary and it is HILARIOUS!  The game itself would be nothing but a bargain bin footnote in gaming history if it weren't for its developer, Derek Smart.  In fact, the game is secondary to Smart and his usenet and IRC antics.  Check out the following links:

http://www.werewolves.org/~follies/

http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/depart/jan98/bc3k.html

And after you go to Derek's official website (http://www.bc3000ad.com), look at this one:

http://3000bc.0catch.com/

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

Glad I made you smile, D.   Anyway, back on topic...

I've stopped beta testing because nothing gets done.  I've been in one beta test where the devs listened to the beta community and made changes to the game per their requests.  The rest were just "report the bugs, period."  Although the boards are full of dingalings, some people do put good suggestions out there.  Devs rarely post on the boards, so at times it seems that the beta testers are writing to themselves.

Beta testers, in my experience fall into a couple of categories:

Real testers - These are the people who play regularly, but not too much.  They send in bug reports, post helpful info on the forums, and don't get all bent out of shape when there's a wipe or a server crash.  This is an endangered species.

Faux testers - Kind of like the real testers, but more concerned with the fact that you aren't submitting enough bugs.  Every post that might criticize an aspect of the game or the game state is met with, "Shut up, you are here to find bugs - that's ALL!"  These people don't realize that bug reports help with the tangible problems, but forum postings give devs an insight into the more esoteric side, e.g. gameplay, fun factor, etc.  If the devs didn't want us posting, they wouldn't put a board up.

Fanboys - Becoming way too prevalent.  These guys do not want to hear one critical thing about the game.  No matter how bad it is nor how poorly it is designed, these guys are completely infatuated and any criticism will be met with insults and flames.  I tell these guys that I, too, want the game to succeed, and that is precisely why I am pointing out flaws.  They don't want to hear it.  These same guys are probably grumbling now about how SWG has too many bugs and should have been tested longer, but back in beta they were saying, "Raph and the devs know what they're doing!  You don't!  You're not a developer, so shut up!"  These people are very difficult to tolerate.

Lottery winners - These testers act as if a beta invite is a golden ticket in a Wonka bar.  They are always telling you how lucky you are to be in this beta and that there are 10 other people who would kill to have your position.  You, according to them, should get on your knees and bow to the company HQ thrice daily for the privilege you have been given.  These guys don't understand that beta testing is a JOB.  Yes, only a select few are invited, but it's not all fun and games being a tester if you do it properly.  Remember, the developers need testers as much as (if not more than) testers need developers.  My time is valuable and I can spend it doing lots of things other than fixing someone else's code just do I can have the honor of paying to play their game.  I rarely hear developers take this attitude, as they understand how important testers are.

Old timers - These guys love to go on and on about how long they've been in the test and what it was like back then and how many positive changes have been made and how you don't know what the hell you're talking about because you came in on beta 2 and they've been there since alpha.  Sometimes there is some relevance to the current issue in their posts, but mostly they are just bragging about their length of service, a pretty pitiful boast at that. 

Badge wearers - Even more annoying than old timers are the testers who love to give you their beta resume, as in, "I've been in 84 betas, and I know what I'm talking about!"  These guys collect beta invites like baseball cards and proudly tell everyone about their history in some geeky attempt to be cool.  They provide very little substance, probably because they are too busy signing up for more beta tests.

Free players - To these guys, a beta invitation is a chance to play the game for free.  They do not understand that a beta game is a work in progress, therefore anytime a server crashes or characters are rolled back, they are screaming "WHY CAN'T I PLAY?!?!?"  Admittely, it is annoying when you've developed a character and it is wiped, but that's part of the agreement.  Most people understand this, but a few get extremely angry and love to dump that anger on the boards.

Griefers - We've all met these players, and they're in beta tests as well.  Since beta games are rougher, they are easier to exploit, so here they come, looking to make your playing time as miserable as possible.  Generally under the age of 16, they go by names like YuGiMoN and Sweet Leaf :) and don't do a whole lot of posting, probably because they can't read or write.  They spend a lot of time making up for their lack of genitalia by killing or harassing legitimate players.  Mommy and daddy will be supporting these guys well into their 30s while they master the art of pizza delivery.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

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Originally posted by ArconX

Btw: Force Sensitive slot anybody? We are almost what? 4 month's sinds the release, and still nobody has the jedi extra character slot ... hmmmm ... i'm wondering if it even exists, just like all that nice pr of player towns, mounts, and other stuff, where there is still no sign of :) )

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My brother was in EB the other say and was looking for a game to buy when this fat nerd with glasses and pimples came up to him waving a copy of SWG.  "You should really buy this," he said, "You can actually play Star Wars!"  He then proceeded to tell my brother that there was a guy in the game who had already reached Jedi Grand Master.  According to my brother, he looked like he was about to gaz when he said it.

The fact that dictionary definition nerds love this game notwithstanding, something is funky here.  Whether ArconX is right and no one has gotten a slot or Myron the uberdork is accurate about his buddy reaching Jedi nirvana, neither is good news for SWG.  Either it's far too hard or it's far too easy.  Given the fact that a lot of teenagers and twentysomethings waste their lives in front of MMOGs, it's not surprising that someone got to Jedi Master in a couple of months of marathon PLing.  But again I say, SO WHAT?  Now you're at the top of the game, so what is there to do?  I could tell in beta that SWG was going to be, if not a bust, then a major disappointment.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

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Originally posted by Clever_Glove

I would predict both Matrix and Middle earth are doomed, since those games are more about name recognition than about making a quality product. How well did it work for SWG?

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You know, I think you've really put your finger on what has been bothering me about The Matrix Online, as well as MEO, in that these are not games built so much around great stories as around name recognition.

Before the flames start, I am in NO WAY suggesting that MEO is not based on a work of literature that has a great story.  Indeed, Tolkein's books really fathered all the original fantasy RPGs all the way up to modern day and no one will argue that the LOTR books are not fantastic stories.  My point is that what's driving TMO and MEO is more recent film success than a solid plot.

I was amazed at how the loyalists turned on the Matrix movies.  Reloaded was less than brilliant and many people said so.  The game sold well, but reviews were universally negative and I understand many went back to the store.  There's already rumor that Revolutions will be the least popular movie of the three, as if people are planning not to go.  I can't help but think that this feeling will taint the MMOG.

Middle Earth, with its fantasy trappings and Tolkein ties is likely to do better than TMO.  I see it succeeding well, assuming it's not half done.  I don't see the same for the Matrix.

BCO gets my vote for the most likely flop.  No one plays the Battlecruiser games now.  Why anyone would sign on to this bottle of instant earthquake is beyond me.  I challenge anyone to go to Derek Smart's website (http://www.bc3000ad.com) and see how incredibly uninformative and out of date it is.  Make sure you see the picture of Derek standing next to his rent-a-Mercedes on the side of the freeway.  Smart's Soapbox, for one example, hasn't been updated in almost two years.  The official line from Derek:  It's ready when it's ready and right now it ain't ready.  I'll believe it when I see it.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

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Originally posted by Koltrane

Speaking of Ultima, isn't Garriott working on some new uberMMOG?  What's it called again?

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NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

Right now I'm playing Neocron.  I played several but none kept my interest like EQ until NC.  Still, it's not the perfect MMORPG, but it's a lot of fun.  Also playing Tron 2.0 (outstanding) and I still have the original Tribes on my drive and I play it every once in a while, but the number of Tribes servers and players has dwindled significantly.  I may finally give it the boot after 5 years.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

What about Monster & Me?  That sounds like a kiddie game!  Does anyone know anything about this title?

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

One game that is truly a break from the hack n slash mold of most MMOGs is Ultimate Baseball Online (http://www.ultimatebaseballonline.com/).  This is a massively multiplayer sports game that allows you to create and train a ballplayer, then start playing on a team and work up to the majors.  I've always thought that sports games would work really well in the massively multiplayer arena, expecially baseball and football where there are specific skill positions.  Does  anyone know of any other sports themed MMOGs?

Verant (now SOE) was working on a game at one time called Sovereign that was sort of like a MM version of a cross between C&C and Civilization.  SOE officially canned the project some time ago, but someone should take that one and run with it.

WWIIOL is definitely different, given its military theme, but my experience is that the game isn't ready to be a true MMOG pay for play game.  Granted, I last played it in early 2003 and I've heard they've made some great strides, but I'm still wary.  If they had made WWIIOL like BF1942 in a MMOG world, that would have rocked and been way different.

P.S. Why isnt mmorpg.com not tracking UBO on the game list?  I know it's not a RPG, but it is MM. 

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

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Originally posted by hercules

But honestly which company ever kept a finished mmorpg out?

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I have to say that Mythic did a very nice job with DAoC.  When that game came out, the bugs were very minor.  Compared to the buggy code and lack of content that has plagued the last few MMOGs, DAoC was near perfect.  In the DAoC beta, Mythic used alpha and beta 1 - 3 to fix bugs.  They invited all who applied for beta to the beta four and used that for stress testing.  When the game went gold, it was solid as a rock.

I beta tested EVE for several phases and the beta board was a constant battle between testers who complained about all the bugs and testers who would make excuses for the incomplete state of the game.  Many of us pleaded with CCP through the boards to extend the test a few more months until the game was ready.  They did delay once, but that game needed another 3 months of testing when it was released.

SW:G was the same.  It was nowhere near ready when beta ended and Sony went for the quick money.  They got a bunch of initial signups, but that game is leaking players like an oil well during Saddam's retreat.   It won't remain on top of the subscriber pile for long.

TSO by many accounts was not ready for release, but I think the Sims just doesn't translate well to a MMOG.  Does anyone play that game anymore?  I never hear about it.

Shadowbane?  Holy smoke.  There's proof that extensive beta testing doesn't make for a good game!  I have no idea what the devs did for three years, but they apparently didn't focus on bugfixes!

Anarchy Online is the most notorious bad launch, but Funcom has done a damn fine job of overcoming their initial problems and putting together a great game.  AO is an outstanding title.  Even though I don't play it anymore, I understand the expansions have been pretty well developed.  WWIIOL launched at the same time just about, it was equally as buggy and STAYED buggy for years.  The problems with that title were deeper than buggy code, though.  Regardless, it is still out there and has a core of dedicated players.

I think a lot of this garbage started when it became kind of geek chic to be invited to test a game and all kinds of people started signing up to test anything.  Earth & Beyond actually sold pre-orders with the promise that buying the product early guaranteed you a spot in the beta test.  They actually sold beta code!  A brilliant marketing move, but one that (I think) eventually fomented a good amount of bitterness toward EA and E&B.

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

Not to be a pessimist, but I look at the games in the queue and some of them just look like accidents waiting to happen.  I'm particularly concerned about The Matrix Online, which sounds like a great game in theory, but what will you actually do?  In the movie, only Neo could fight agents successfully.  Will all players be able to fight agents?  Will there be sub agents or easier agents?  Will there be a "Neo sensitive" slot?    On top of that, Ubi Soft is in charge, and we've all seen how they can wreck a game (a la Shadowbane).

Middle Earth Online also sounds like a dynamite title, but unlike other fantasy MMOGs (EQ, UO), you're tampering with Tolkein's world and there are two big problems there: 1) any deviation from Tolkein's books is certain to be met with huge amounts of derision from the faithful and 2) Tolkein's world was so richly developed that trying to duplicate it in an interactive medium is sure to be a letdown.  In other words, JRR is a hard act to follow, and Middle Earth Online may suffer because of nothing more complicated than unrealistic expectations.

Then, there's Battlecruiser Online.  This to me is an impending train wreck.  For those of you who don't know the history of the "critically acclaimed" Battlecruiser series (I dare you to find one critic who has acclaimed it), they are consistently buggy, graphically challenged, and lack many features.  There wasn't even a multiplayer version of any Battlecruiser title until 2003.  The Battlecruiser series is driven by the egomaniac Derek Smart who is a legend on usenet for his mindless flaming of anyone who dares criticize his games.  The first Battlecruiser 3000AD is considered to be the Citizen Kane of buggy computer games by many.  Give Derek credit, he is a tenacious little bugger and he eventually delivers a product, but by the time it's workable, the graphics are 3 years outdated and the gameplay has been duplicated by 10 other games that did it earlier and better.  History does not bode well for this title.

There are others that are just plain goofy sounding (Monster & Me, There, Yohoho Puzzle Pirates) and many that just look like more of the same.  Anybody else concerned that some of these upcoming titles are destined to go the way of Majestic?

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G

I would say WoW as well, especially after some of the screenshots, but I also thought SW:G and The Sims Online would be huge.  If MMOG success is measured not by initial sales figures, but by ongoing subscriptions, then TSO is a HUGE flop and SW:G is sliding quickly out of its honeymoon phase into flop history.  Caveat emptor.  It seems like everything Blizzard touches turns to gold, so if they do it right and learn from the mistakes of others, like not selling the game while it's still in early beta (yes, I have a specific Jedi themed game in mind), they will have a winner, but nothing's for certain.

I'm excited about Horizons and think it will be one of these dark horse games that culls a respectable and loyal following, kinda like AO.  It won't sell like Star Wars: Crapaxies did, but it will do OK and become a solid MMOG player.

The fact the Raph Koster has his hands all in EQ2 oughta scare the pants off of anyone who is looking forward to that game (me included).  Raph is responsible for some of the goofy decisions that have crippled SW:G like single character servers and "force-sensitive" slots.  This guy bungled SW:G and now they've given him EQ2?  Someone is blind w/o a cane over @ SOE.  I guess they're just looking at initial sales numbers without realizing that a boxed turd would sell if you branded the Star Wars logo on it.  Come to think of it, a boxed turd is exactly what Raph and company sold.

One thing I read about recently that looks really cool AND has a pedigree is UXO.  The dev team has been working in a good amount of secrecy, which has kept the release pressure off.  It also sounds like the dev team is not getting all bunged up over silly little play balance issues, or at least not letting them get in the way of fun.  I'm not sure of the release date, but UXO is definitely worth a look.

Speaking of Ultima, isn't Garriott working on some new uberMMOG?  What's it called again?

NC > DAoC > EQ > UO > fecal matter > leper's oily rags > SW:G