All Posts by Umbral

Originally posted by jimmyman99

 

Look at MMORPG.COM, they dont really have "best game" (other then seasonal voting where people vote for best games in their categories), they were carefull not to do it that way. What they have is "most voted" game, which basically the same as "most bought game", which basically means "X product sells most, which means X is the best game".

No, it is not the same.

Everquest 2, Warhammer, Guild Wars, Lotro, are top voted games and all of them sell less copies than WoW and in some cases less than Lineage 2.

Most voted game is not the same as most bought game.

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Jimmyman99

This started to be pointless, it seems you dont know how movie industry and cinematography industry works in this world, not only in US, when you say : "well, my movie is not bad ONLY becuase I did not advertise it so no1 saw it." you showed it... remember you said this when the example was one of the most rewarded and well known movies outside hollywood...

Something pretty similar happen with games, all the time you are trying to use a coca cola/pepsi product analogy with entertainment products. If your logic would be accurate, the most popular (for the masses as you can say) movie award, the Oscar would be based in how much copies of a particular movie are sold.

Check any automobil magazine, search for "the best" cars, are they basing this title among sells and marketing?

It is clear you dont know what really happens in the movie industry and even in the game industry (as you said, you dont even know the games I mentioned).

See, this "the best" discussion is rather silly to me, but as you seems to love it, just take a look in absolute all awards related to entertainment, even the most popular ones, they are not purely related on "numbers" and marketing... so, you, the guy that loves what is popular, why every entertainment product judment and availiation are NOT based purely in marketing and sells, why they are not using your logic? Maybe because your logic is not accurate among this kind of creation/product?

Im done with this subject , but I will let you with a challenge, search more people that have knowledge about movies, games, cars and nutrition and use your "the best" product logic, you will be surprised with the answers you will get.

Oh, and before I forget  you said :   "People buy products they want, not that are being advertised."  Hmmm...

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Originally posted by jimmyman99

 

We are talking about different things here. Again, you are justifying your argument by your own personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, except that is not what the whole issue is about. You can say all you want about what movie/game you think is the best, but all that time you will be subjective. The whole point of my argument is NOT to use your opinion. Be objective. The only way to be objective (as in NOT to you use your own opinion or judement or reasoning) is to go by the number. X game/movie sells more then Y game/movie = X is a more popular product, which means it is a better product. That is the only objective way to compare products. Please, do not give me the example where you think one product sells less and it is better. It will be a subjective comparison.

You are wrong again, I never said what is the best in any circunstance here, I said "for me the russian movie is better", this is when I was subjectve, I didnt judge what is popular, I said by a rational conclusion both movies are good, and in YOUR logic, Titanic is the BEST movie.

I think you should read all what I said again, you are implying Iam using the same base as you, Im not judging the "best", the "best"  IS a subjective title.

I already prooved to you using movies that the argument of X sell more than Y than it is better it is WRONG, because some products have more marketing,  and money on it to be more popular, it is not a choice made by the people, it is a choice made by money and marketing only.

A movie is more popular than other movie not just because more people like it, but because more people KNOW it and more people are more affected by marketing.

You are an example of it, you do know Titanic, but you dont know Vozvrashcheniye, so you cant compare them, even with the fact you know Titanic is more popular, because it is american and it has millions on marketing.

Every time you say "I think" or "in my opinion" you make your logic subjective. Which means it is not reliable because someone else may disagree with you. Since opinions are of equal value, there will never be a cosensus. Thats why there must be one way to compare - a pure objective statistical way. When I say "X sells more then Y" it is not my opinion, it is the fact. Thats why it is 100% objective. And ths the only thing I wanted to say.

"X sells more then Y" Is not objective because you need to use the marketing, brand, acessibility logic behind it.

There is no "I think" or "in my opinion", Im not forcing what I like here, you are trying to formulate a simplistic logic to judge what is "best" when the title "the best" is subjective and relative.

Back to the original point. The whole argument started when Martie posted about SOE producing expansions that are (according to his opinions) a failure. You countered his argument with yours, stating that "X sells more then Y" is not valid

Originally posted by Umbral
Do you have any rational argument about what you call "crap expansions" beside the invalid point "x game sold more copies'?

The reasoning behind Martin is objective, but his comnclusion is not. Your reasoning AND conclusions are both subjective. The fact that EQ2 expansions did not sell well means that it is not the best product. Is it a failure? Thats debatable. TO him, obviously it is. But to you, it is not. Both are right becuase both are your own opinions. To someone, 100,000 sales is a failure. TO others,  10,000 is a success. So I was not arguing about your conclusion, I actualy agree that if EQ2 expansion sold 100,000 copies, it is a moderate success. I was arguing about the way you presented your logic. You tried to prove your point with subjective logic, which doesn't work.

No , my conclusion is not subjectiv, amount of content and the technical details  are NOT  a subjective claim, it is just the reality.

Your "selling" logic without marketing in the equation is just, Im sorry to say, dumb.

I already showed it to you using movies as reference, you just decided to avoid this and talk about the series you enjoy.

You are not a child, but it seems you just dont know how things work today ( Im sorry if it sounded personal), you are just ignoring all my arguments trying to belive Im talking about things I "like", this conversation turned to be totally dumb.

If you want to reply to this, go back to the movie example and the marketing argument, forget about the simplistic logic, or this conversation will be pointless.

--To be clear, popularity is not (in most cases) decided by professional critics and the consumers/people, popularity is decided by money/marketing, and marketing doesnt make a better (or worse) product specially when it is related to expression and entertainment.

This is why you dont even know a russian movie that has the same amount of awards than an ultra popular american movie.(remember, you were the one using the awards argument)

So, your logic behind x sells more than y because more people like it, than it is better is wrong.

Just one more point, sometimes the entertainment product that sell more copies doesnt generate more money than a entertainment product that sell less but has less money on marketing and production.

And just to be repetivive, in most cases, people/consumers doesnt decide wich product will be more popular, money and marketing does it.

These days gaming industry is much more similar to movie industry than it was in the past, this make your logic even more pointless.

Originally posted by jimmyman99

The keyword that you use is "you" would say Vozvrashchenie is a great movie. You are just one person. You are being subjective when you say Vozvrashchenie is a better movie. It is your opinion that it is better. Not that is theres something wrong with that.

 -Yes, when I say "to me is a great movie" I am expressing only the fact that I like this movie, but I wanted  to show you I can express that without saying titanic is a crap movie because I dont like it.

 If we use your logic, you would say titanic is "better" than Vozvrashcheniye because it is more popular, just to show you that the concept of "more popular" is better is not a rational argument all the time.

 In my point of view Vozvrashcheniye is better because it is more artistic , unique and expressive, this is just my opinion.

 Some people would say, Titanic is better because it is "easy" to watch, more people know Titanic, so, would be this affirmation the "rational" and correct one? In my point of view no, in your point of view yes, but in a trully cold and rational observation, both are good in different ways, it doesnt really matter wich one is more popular... see? We can say the same about MMOs without use personal taste as base.

 

NO. Why do peoplekeep insisting on that? I do NOT like most mainstream movies/music. Most of stuff I like is NOT mainstream. I like The Journeymen, the 4400, Daybreak, Dexter, Scrubs, 24, Heroes, etc. Some of them are fairly mainstream, but some arent. However, I cant say that Daybreak is the BEST series. Well, it is the BEST for me. But it is my personal opinion. If I were to say it is the BEST, then I bet there would be a thousand other voices saying otherwise.

Then, would you agree that the most popular serie would not be exacly the best serie? As you know, some good series like OZ and Curb your Enthusiasm are not made to be as popular as OC.

PS: I did not like Titanic at all. but I can't say its a bad movie since, obviously, it has won many awards. That is the objective way to see things. If you were to ask me my personal opinion, id say the movie stank. You must separate your own "you" from your opinion.  Thats the only way to be objective.

 I never said a popular movie or game should be bad, this is the misconception you got since the beggining, when I say EQ2 expansions are great, Riddick is a great game, Silent Hill and King´s Bounty are great games, Im not saying Gears of War is a crap game. The one that said if someting is more popular it will be better was you.

In any case, you have pointed out on many occasions that this is not a good way to compare products, be that EQ2 expansion or anything else. And yet you haven't provided any objective alternatives (other then rational reasoning). Please be so kind and explain.

Lets focus in the expansion, hours and hours of content for people that play EQ2, great dungeons, group play focus, nice locations and long term entertainment are enough to say, EQ2 has great expansions.

The last wow expansion sold much more than EOF and TOS together, because of that EQ2 expansions are inferior? Not at all.

Are wow expansions bad because they are popular? No.

Forgeting about taste, both games have good expansions, I do prefer EQ2 expansions, you may prefer WoW expansions, but in the end, you cant say WoW expansions are better because they are more popular, most of people outside MMOs dont even know EQ2, this is when marketing, accessibility and brand make a difference and those aspects are not always related to "quality".

All this started when someone said EQ2 expansions are useless, with so much content, lore, challenge and fun for a stable playerbase and new players why would EQ2 expansions be useless? Because it is less popular than WoW? In your logic unfortunately, yes.

Unpopularity can be even good among mmorpgs because it results in an unite and more pleasant community.

 

 

Originally posted by xbellx777

 

whats wrong with reading and believing in the Bible? i do and i dont agree at all with what jimmyman99 said

Nothing is wrong with believing in the Bible, I only used it because it is a popular book ( for obvious reasons).

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Originally posted by jimmyman99

 

 

Look at the movie categories, lets say you only had 3 types of awards: "best male actor", "best female actor" and "best child actor". how would you define which movie is better if only 2 movies are competing? Obviously the one with 2 awards. THATS objective.  

You are wrong again if you take popularity in this circustance.

See

• Venice Film Festival 2003 Won 'CinemAvvenire' Award Best First Film; Golden Lion; Luigi De Laurentiis Award; SIGNIS Award; Sergio Trasatti Award / Cottbus Film Festival of Young East European Cinema 2003 Won Award of the Ecumenical Jury; Special Prize Feature Film Competition For best direction
• César Awards, France 2004 Nominated César Best Foreign Film (Meilleur film étranger)
• European Film Awards 2003 Won European Discovery of the Year
• Fajr Film Festival 2004 Won Crystal Simorgh International Competition: Best Film
• Gijón International Film Festival 2003 Won Best Actor: Ivan Dobronravov, Tied with Vladimir Garin for Vozvrashcheniye (2003) and Konstantin Lavronenko; Best Screenplay; Special Jury Award
• Ljubljana International Film Festival 2003 Won Kingfisher Award
• Nika Awards 2004 Won Nika Best Cinematographer; Best Film
• Palm Springs International Film Festival 2004 Won FIPRESCI Prize
• Russian Guild of Film Critics 2003 Won Golden Aries Best Cinematography; Best Debut; Best Film
• Thessaloniki Film Festival 2003 Won FIPRESCI Prize - Special Mention
• Tromsø International Film Festival 2004 Won Audience Award

These are the awards of the movie Vosvrashchenie.

You and probably most of people from US here doesnt know this movie.(it is a great movie by the way).

But Titanic a very popular movie won 11 oscars, an oscar is a very propular (or you can call for the masses) award.

So wich one will be the best to you? The popular Titanic? Or the expressive and unique Vosvrashchenie?

Using your so called logic, you would say Titanic, then you would say, because no one here knows Vosvrashchenie, but no one knows not only because it is not american, but because they had more than 50 times less money to use into publicity.

Me? I would not say wich one is better, I would only say Vosvrashchenie is a great great movie.

And by the record, I asked in my first reply for that person to explain why EQ2 expansions were useless and then said the "numbers" argument would not cut it, for some reason you introduced the "what is the best and what is good and what is not".

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Umbral

 

Fit in where? Im trying to be objective. If you were to ask me my PERSONAL opinion about ANYTHING, it would most likely differ from the one when I try to be objective.

You already know your statistic is to simplistic to be taken seriously.

To belive popularity makes quality is a way to fit in into the majority.

You contradict yourself here. If they aren't "masses" material, then they are NOT popular. See again you are separating yourself from the masses. Last time I checked, the whole human race is one big "mass". Unless you are a separate species and not part of us, "masses".

No there is no contradiction, ultra popular products are different than products well known by a niche, dont try to win an argument using the same word with different meaning.

What other way to objectively compare 2 products? Asking people? I wanna see how you can ask for 100% accurate opinion of 100% earth's population. We must go by the numbers if we were to filter out "opinions".

You cant do this if you ask people that only know and experienced the entertainment product A and doesnt know the product B, see how your statistic about popularity and what is the "best" is almost silly?

If you ask all the manking wich taste better, cow or moose you will get the cow answer because most of people just dont know how moose taste.

Am I trying to fit in or are you trying to stand out?  Oh my god, im NOT listening to mainstream music, Im not watching mainstream movies, im not using a PC... im not a lamb! You are trying to stand out so hard you are separating yourself from the world and you value your one ego more then everybody else. If there were only 10 people in the world and you were one of them, youd go against them just becuase your very own opinion is only one of ten, and if things go not the way you wanted youd be mad at them for making you do things everyone else wants.

You are even more confused about what I said than about statistics, see, I didnt atack mainstream and masses products, I dont care what you like or dislike, I never said EQ2 is better than WoW or Naked Lunch is better than Batman Begings, I only said how it is good to know that there is a EQ2, there is a Naked Lunch.

Remember, I didnt atack what is for the masses, sure I claim now and ever that Victor Hugo is better than any soap opera, but I cant talk about it with you, would be pointless...Remember, you are the one atacking what is not popular, meaning if is not for the masses and if you are not with the majority, than, it is no good.

I disagree with you and Im not the only one, the main issue is, you truly belive in your simplistic logic even when some people showed how flawed your logic is.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by vesavius

No, your wrong.

The X sells more then Y, so X is better argument is the utterly worst way to measure success.

realy? I hear all those "no you are wrong" and such. But none of you gives me an OBJECTIVE way to identify the "best" product.

 

Here is why your pseudo statistic point of view is wrong.

You cant formulate an statistic with such simplistic values, you need to put marketing and acessibility and more variations to the equation.

Just to be clear, you are the one using the "best x" term.

Just an idiotic example, a movie company use 3.000.000 bananas ( a large part of bananas were used to pay for marketing and publicity) to produce movie X, this movie is very "popular" and sell 10.000.000 copies, then the same company made a small cult movie with almost no publicity with 20.000 bananas, this movie sells 1.000.000... you see, in your eyes, you will just scream, movie x "is so popular, it is a sucess", but in the end the small movie without publicity is more sucessful even with less popularity.

There is not ONE way to identify the "best" product, a product is not "the best" in all circumstances, it is even more relative when we talk about entertainment products that have personal experiences and artistic aspects in it...really I dont think you are serious, if you are joking with such simplistic arguments I think I just fell in it.

Your comments about culture are tottaly  not accurate, but I prefer stay silent about it.

 

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About this expansion, I hope the end game Dungeons are as good as EOF Dungeons, I still think MMCastle is  one of the most challenging and interesting Dungeons I ever saw in a MMORPG.

 

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Originally posted by jimmyman99

I don't know most of the games you listed. In any case, the only objective definition of which product is better is going by numbers. Anything you say about you liking the product is subjective and does not count. It doesn't matter how much you like EQ2 or anything else, if everybody else hates it then it sucks. Plain and simple.

No, rational observations of a game are more important than numbers, soon I will tell you why.

If you think that your opinion is better then  "the masses" then, well, you have a narcissism complex. Everyone here has the same rights you have.

Opinions are just opinions, Im talking about rational arguments related to them, the term "better" was introduced by you in this subject.