Originally posted by jarish

You think anything you do in any MMO has an impact on the story or the world? No...the developers will always make a story on how they see it going. Yes there are a few here and there that have that ability but are they popular...no.

Yes - I don't know what mmo's you've been playing or if you've been paying attention to games in development, but most of the newcomers try to sell themselves on being more "player-driven". They wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't popular.

Sure they're only MMOs and sometimes that impact isn't terribly significant but...

Deep down inside we all secretly know that in the real-world, we're powerless lemmings rushing towards the inevitable cliff. We can also never accumulate as much wealth or shiny objects as we'd like. Hence the amazing popularity of mmos like WoW, which let you feel amazingly powerful and gather more shiny objects than you can keep track of.

And while on the topic of WoW - how much story does WoW really have? Or rather, how much do most players pay care about and pay attention to it? Let's examine the game mechanics.

• once upon a time the text from quest givers leisurely appeared on screen at a readable rate - then they added an option to just have it appear all at once (i.e. not be read) and be accepted
• once upon a time you had to pay attention to and keep track of quest requirements - then they added an on-screen summary, eg. collect 10 X's so you could generally ignore quest text entirely

Unfortunately I don't work for Blizzard so I don't know the stats on how many players have those options enabled - but the fact that they were implemented in this fashion should tell us that a significant proportion of mmo players couldn't care less about story.

I'm not saying that's good or bad - but it does tell us that a lot of mmo players have no interest in story, not even new ones. So imagine how uninterested they'd be in one they already know.

The majority of leisure activities that humans engage in address, in some way, desires that we feel are not being met in other parts of our lives. We all have wants and needs and they can't all be satisfied through work etc.

LOTRO only speaks to some of those desires. Most MMOs speak to more.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

You still don't get it, do you? You are not right. Not even wrong. You have an opinion and an idea, that is your own. Some share it, others don't. You have NO WAY of knowing, that the "majority of MMO players don't want a story-based game". Nobody has the ultimate facts written in some hidden book of truths.

Hope you got my point this time...

DB

 

No I got it the first time - you made a lame pseudo-existentialist dismissal of a perfectly rational argument.

One can't "know" anything, therefore anything I say is "just opinion". Not that I prefaced anything I said with "I know for certain", but I didn't preface every single paragraph of my post with "This is just my opinion", ergo everything I said was just "feeling".

Bravo you.

I know for certain why I don't play LOTRO. And if you play MMOs and read forums where players discuss what they do and don't like in MMOs and what they'd like to see in MMOs, then it doesn't take long to figure out what players want in them.

Have you heard of Occam's Razor - all other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.

No other variable, or collection of variables, can explain why LOTRO made such a pitiful impact. In fact, most of those other variables would lead one to predict the very opposite result of what happened. LOTRO should have been an enormous success. So whatever the problem is, it's pretty huge.

At the moment, the computer game market is shifting away from single player games to mmos, because mmos can offer some significant extras over their single player counterparts. LOTRO came along and made an mmo which deliberately regressed towards a single player design and offered fewer of those extras.

The math here is pretty simple.

According the the NPD group, LoTRO was the 3rd most popular MMO in North America just prior to the launch of AoC. 

www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/online-subscriptions-exceed-1-billion-a-year-says-npd

AoC may have pushed it down to 4th, but there is no reason to think it's not still in the top five.  So, actually, a lot of players to like LoTRO despite your delusions to the contrary.  It's more popular than EVE, the most popular  "player driven" MMO out currently.  

If by "failed to make an impact" you mean it didn't get WoW numbers, I would suggest that your standards are a bit off.   If that's your standard for success, get ready to be disappointed by every major MMO release for a very long time.  WAR may crack a million, but I seriously doubt it's going to do WoW numbers.  I doubt it will even do WotLK numbers. 

So far only Runescape is the only MMO to get close to having WoW numbers of subs in North America.  I personally don't see that as the future of gaming, but maybe you do.

LoTRO is  also not as solo centric as you seem to think.  In fact a lot of players bitch that there is too much group only content.   They also bitch about how crafters are designed to be interdependent.   A lot of players also bitch the the PvP zone is RvR style, and that how many players show up can make a big difference in how battles play out (ala DAoC).  I figure as long as the hardcore solo players and the looney birds that think we should go back to EQ style forced grouping are both pissed, Turbine is hitting the right balance of group and solo content.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

You still don't get it, do you? You are not right. Not even wrong. You have an opinion and an idea, that is your own. Some share it, others don't. You have NO WAY of knowing, that the "majority of MMO players don't want a story-based game". Nobody has the ultimate facts written in some hidden book of truths.

Hope you got my point this time...

DB

 

No I got it the first time - you made a lame pseudo-existentialist dismissal of a perfectly rational argument.

One can't "know" anything, therefore anything I say is "just opinion". Not that I prefaced anything I said with "I know for certain", but I didn't preface every single paragraph of my post with "This is just my opinion", ergo everything I said was just "feeling".

Bravo you.

I know for certain why I don't play LOTRO. And if you play MMOs and read forums where players discuss what they do and don't like in MMOs and what they'd like to see in MMOs, then it doesn't take long to figure out what players want in them.

Have you heard of Occam's Razor - all other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.

No other variable, or collection of variables, can explain why LOTRO made such a pitiful impact. In fact, most of those other variables would lead one to predict the very opposite result of what happened. LOTRO should have been an enormous success. So whatever the problem is, it's pretty huge.

At the moment, the computer game market is shifting away from single player games to mmos, because mmos can offer some significant extras over their single player counterparts. LOTRO came along and made an mmo which deliberately regressed towards a single player design and offered fewer of those extras.

The math here is pretty simple.

Your math would be simple to yourself, but it is *STILL* not the truth. Chew on it as you will, nobody can tell for sure, what makes LOTRO this successfull (and not less or more successful), not even your failproof, One-and-only Truth "math".

It can be the lack of PVP, the difficulty of gold farming, the UI, the combat animations, ANYthing that contribute to the fact the LOTRO doN't have millions of subscribers. Beside the point of "who cares" for the subsciber number issue, I have realized that it is impossible for you to even comprehend the fact that you have a VERY good chance of being totally wrong with your "no other variable" BS.

Sorry, you failed :)

DB

(edited to highlight where you actually failed)

You gotta love when people mention "impact on the gameworld". That's ridiculous.

Every game is a *software*. You can only go as far as the developers have decided to allow you before built-in barriers kick in. I played EVE and Ryzom and loved them both. The concept is excellent. However, I missed the story - any kind of story.

Yes, some people don't need any kind of story. But to say, that they are in majority - it is, said in the most diplomatic way - very naive and childish in the best case - downright arrogant and self-centered in the worst.

DB

Originally posted by Yeebo

According the the NPD group, LoTRO was the 3rd most popular MMO in North America just prior to the launch of AoC. 

www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/online-subscriptions-exceed-1-billion-a-year-says-npd

AoC may have pushed it down to 4th, but there is no reason to think it's not still in the top five.  So, actually, a lot of players to like LoTRO despite your delusions to the contrary.  It's more popular than EVE, the most popular  "player driven" MMO out currently.  

If by "failed to make an impact" you mean it didn't get WoW numbers, I would suggest that your standards are a bit off.   If that's your standard for success, get ready to be disappointed by every major MMO release for a very long time.  WAR may crack a million, but I seriously doubt it's going to do WoW numbers.  I doubt it will even do WotLK numbers. 

I don't know if you've noticed but I'm not the OP. Read the thread title  - it wasn't me who felt the need to compare LOTRO's subscriptions to WoW's.

And I never said it "failed to make an impact" - I said it made a "pitiful impact". Neither is flattering, but they're not the same thing.

Originally posted by Yeebo

 LoTRO is  also not as solo centric as you seem to think. 

I never suggested it was - or anything like it. What I said was that LOTRO's game design shifted back in the direction of single player offline games specifically with regards to its very linear nature, follow-the-story nature. I've not made a single comment in this thread that relates to solo v group gameplay.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Your math would be simple to yourself, but it is *STILL* not the truth. Chew on it as you will, nobody can tell for sure, what makes LOTRO this successfull (and not less or more successful), not even your failproof, One-and-only Truth "math".

It can be the lack of PVP, the difficulty of gold farming, the UI, the combat animations, ANYthing that contribute to the fact the LOTRO doN't have millions of subscribers. Beside the point of "who cares" for the subsciber number issue, I have realized that it is impossible for you to even comprehend the fact that you have a VERY good chance of being totally wrong with your "no other variable" BS.

Sorry, you failed :)

DB

(edited to highlight where you actually failed)

Do you grasp the basic idea of discussion or argument? Just standing back with your arms crossed shouting "THE TRUTH IS UNKNOWABLE THEREFORE YOU ARE WRONG" over and over and over is amusing but not terribly persuasive.

Oh but look, you've actually tried to make a real argument. Hurrah!

Yes, I agree that LOTRO's minimal pvp may have been a contributing factor to its less than mind-blowing success. I acknowledged that in an earlier post, but at the same time pointed out that plenty of mmo'ers are quite happy to forego pvp entirely. More importantly, LOTRO's minimal pvp (and inability to play evil characters) is a direct result of its foregone-conclusion story-driven nature.

And I've played the game. Those other factors... LOTRO doesn't suck. There's nothing wrong with the UI. Gold doesn't seem all that hard to come by. The graphics are quite pretty, and without insane hardware requirements. It was actually finished when they released it - a most rare and delightful quality in modern mmos. Still, I didn't like it.

I know, with absolute certainty, why LOTRO didn't appeal to me prior to release, and why it completely failed to grab me when I tried it - it's single-player'esque story-driven nature. And since LOTRO is at least as good as, and in some cases better than other mmos in every other respect, it is far from unreasonable to infer other non-subscribers felt the same way.

Don't get me wrong - I don't begrudge you or anyone else who enjoys this style of game your enjoyment. I've made that point quite clearly. It's a big mmo market and variety is a good thing. It'd be a shame if all mmos were doing exactly the same thing.

Just, getting back to the original post, I'd never expect it to get 1/4 of WoW's population.

So Green13... You have already made your point that you dont like Story-driven MMOs... But how did it become a fact that MMOs that have a story-line cant be sucesfull?? I think there is alot of reasons why LotrO dont have HUGE numbers but having a storyline is most probably not one of them... You dont likr it? Fine! then play something you like intead ...

And yea.. there is alot of sucesfull Sandbox MMOs out there, or coming in the near future...  (that was sarcsm by the way)

Originally posted by green13

 I know, with absolute certainty, why LOTRO didn't appeal to me prior to release, and why it completely failed to grab me when I tried it - it's single-player'esque story-driven nature..

Not sure if you'll ever comprehend this, but you are WRONG if you believe, that even the majority agrees with you.

I cannot say it more simple than that, You can even build a religion around your beliefs, that won't make them any more true :).

I'll just remain in my usual sceptic way, and will always say that WE don't know, if the majority of the players want story based MMO's or not. No, not even you. I am sorry if it's hard to digest. :)

By the way - you might like the UI, love thr gfx, and heck, even character animation, but again, many peopl don't like these - even to a degree that they won't play a game solely because of these. Fair enogh, and of course fair enough for you for not enjoying a story driven game. You are not better or worse than anyone with your taste! We all know that.

But - if you are trying to expand your own tastes as wide as generalizing a game's "lack of success" based on it - then, you are sorely mistaken. I believe I'm not the first or the only one to tell you that, I just took my time and mediocre english skills to try to explain, where and why you are (were) wrong.

DB

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

You gotta love when people mention "impact on the gameworld". That's ridiculous.

Every game is a *software*. You can only go as far as the developers have decided to allow you before built-in barriers kick in. I played EVE and Ryzom and loved them both. The concept is excellent. However, I missed the story - any kind of story.

Yes, some people don't need any kind of story. But to say, that they are in majority - it is, said in the most diplomatic way - very naive and childish in the best case - downright arrogant and self-centered in the worst.

DB

Again you demonstrate that you read my posts... and then respond to some imaginary argument you're having in your own head.

I made no small point of the often shallow nature of gameworld impact

Sure they're only MMOs and sometimes that impact isn't terribly significant...

And as for claiming I said that people who don't need any kind of story are in the majority, that's quite a leap from

a significant proportion of mmo players couldn't care less about story

And then, after all that blatantly misrepresentative drivel, you just descend to outright name-calling.

If you really think that's a good or constructive way to make a point, good luck to you with that.

Originally posted by Papadam

So Green13... You have already made your point that you dont like Story-driven MMOs...

True.

Originally posted by Papadam

I think there is alot of reasons why LotrO dont have HUGE numbers but having a storyline is most probably not one of them...

Slightly off. Maybe you've come in late in the thread. To rehash as briefly as humanly possible...

There's a world of difference between "having a storyline" as you put it and being story-driven, especially when that story is something the majority of mmo players are familiar with. As I said before, this makes the game repetitive before you even install it.

Or as someone else in this thread put it, it's so been there, done that.