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• • Jedi System - How would you have done it?

  • Originally posted by Hadean
    

    Put yourself in the shoes of the developers during the creation of SWG for a moment. You are discussing how to put Jedi in the game and are given carte blanche on how to implement it. As you are brainstorming several problems present themselves.

     

    1) No Jedi: Nothing to grind for. Player Jedi are non-existent. Canon is absolutely preserved. Bad from a marketing point of view.

    2) Alpha Class: Very long grueling grind to achieve Jedi. Rarity somewhat high and canon is more or less preserved. The Jedi are powerful. Bad from a marketing point of view.

    3) Easy Jedi/Starter: Simple Jedi attainment, rarity is low and canon is not preserved. The strength of the Jedi is lowered for balance issues. Good from a marketing point of view.

     

    It seems to me that developing Jedi for this game was doomed for failure. How do you make the game marketable without shredding canon to pieces and ending up with Jedi running rough-shod over the galaxy during a time when the central tenant of the story says they are almost extinct. I can only come to one conclusion. You must either say to hell with Canon, or to hell with Jedi.

     

    I would like your opinions on how you would have implemented it if you were in charge.

     

    First a few comments on your choices...

     

    1)  with no jedi at all, it is not completely star wars as there have always been some jedi no matter what time period it was in....Jedi are such a huge part of star wars (almost if not completely the face of star wars as most of the story is based around jedi...and that's any version of games, movies or books).   So not having jedi at all is the worst marketing move of all and fans of star wars won't like it.    It's ok to have a star wars game where no jedi are in it as a playable class if it's a stand alone game...but for an online game that you have to put years a of your playing time into, you need jedi in it as a playable class as all the younger generations really know about star wars typically starts and ends with jedi....you don't think some 12 year old is concerned about the politics and fate of the galactic senate do you...no, they go aww for the lightsaber, the force powers, the action...etc.

     

    2.)  this would not be bad for marketing....as I said in choice 1, jedi will greatly sale any star wars game.   The fact they would be an alpha class is only a problem for older gamers because of our understanding of star wars....for the younger players, they don't fully understand (maybe not even care) the meaning of why the rebels and the empire are at war....why planets are oppressed...why or how jedi struggle between the dark side or the light side....they care about action, killing, great graphics, fast paced gameplay and whatever else they feel makes it fun.   Content, story and canon is for us adults.   So I think you can have an alpha class if you want but if so, then it's got to be beyond difficult to get a jedi and remain difficult to keep it....marketing would not suffer at all.

     

    3)  Now marketing will suffer with this option as it's already been proven by the state of swg now.   when jedi where not in the game but could be unlocked and when jedi started becoming unlocked, the game was great.   When they started listening to players and trying to please everyone and going through all their other internal problems in the company, that's when the game got bad and remained bad....you can't give away SWG now...so yeah, marketing point of view, the game is dead....I don't care how many people try to say it isn't....when I played for 3 years, the servers were packed 24/7.....now they are ghost towns.....even with or without jedi, that sucks for a star wars point of view....

     

     

    Now as far as jedi, canon and the story or whatever, the problem isn't jedi.  The problem is like I said before is that jedi are practically the face of star wars.   Sure you might have Han or some other non jedi on the front cover of a game or movie, but when it comes down to it, the bulk of what goes on involves jedi and that is in nearly every movie to date.....although they tried to limit jedi in one of the movies and it ended up being the most hated one of the 6.  

     

    So to have an online game based on star wars, you really need jedi and having them will only boost sales while not having them won't necessarily make the game unsuccessful, but certainly it won't be as successful as if you have jedi in it.    The reason I can say that is the proof is there....there are so many jedi running around because that's what majority of players want to be, a jedi.    Having the ability to play multiple characters, nearly everyone is gonna have a jedi right along with their normal class...but if 100,000 players all decide to play their jedi at the same time, then that's what you will see.   If they all decide to play a normal class at the same time then that is what you will see.    YOu can't truly control jedi or any professions or classes in a game and the amount of them you see.   So forget trying to police the visibility of jedi.   People don't want to pay a monthly subscription to only be told that they cannot play with other people with the class/profession they love the most out of star wars.   I know jedi is my favorite part of star wars....and forcing me to play it in the shadows away from other players kills the point of being a jedi in "A GAME".....

     

    So like I said in another post today, my option would be to make different servers so that players who don't care about lots of jedi running around can play on a server where there are no restrictions on jedi.  Players who would rather have jedi limited in number or keep their visibility low can choose to play on a server where jedi are limited.    You can have the same version of the game on all the servers but just have an option a dev can choose to turn on or off as they see fit (maybe with other options as well) and they can then just go.....

     

    server 1 is limited to no jedi

    server 2 is limited to x number of jedi (maybe even use a formula of some kind to determine the amount)

    server 3 is no restrictions on jedi

     

    and also you can have say 4 servers for each type of jedi in the beginning, then based on how many players there actually are subscribing and playiing each type of server, you can then alter which servers get which restriction on jedi. 

     

    Say more people are playing on the no restrictions jedi server.....while out of the 4 no jedi servers, only 2 servers are being used enough to warrant the existance of them....well then you can convert the 4th server to one of the other server options.   That way you won't end up not having enough server space for the jedi option that people like the most.     Also, you can simply just keep 4 of each type of server and just add a new server for the one that needs another server.

     

    BAsically I get this idea from a cabal online somewhat.   That game has 2 servers and 20 channels for each server (which for all I know are servers themselves, I don't really know).   On a server, you have a channel dedicated for novices, one for trading and selling, 3 or 4 premium channels for paying players, 1 channel for war and the rest are regular channels  for free or paying customers.

    The war channel is the only channel you can actively pvp in without suffering great penalties.   You can player kill (PK) someone on the other channels (whhich is just killing them without their consent) but eventually after 3 or 4 PK's you will lose so much honor and suffer other penalties it's not really worth PK'ing too much.    On some channels you can't even PK anyone at all though.   

    As far as I know all the channels run the same version of the game, but obviously the developers have some way of restricting PVP on each channel if they so choose.    So I say take it a step further and for a star wars jedi issue, modify that option so that you can control the amount of jedi for a server.

     

    There you have it....those that can care less about cannon, can play on the no restrictions jedi servers and those who hate seeing jedi can play on the no jedi or limited jedi servers.

     

    As for being an alpha class....that's tricky....I'm not really sure if that's good or not....I had no problem with it either way when swg had them as alpha classes or starting classes as I just loved playing jedi period.    Although I will admit I did like the powerful feeling of being an alpha class....not for pvp though as I don't really like pvp in any game unless it's fully twitched based where it's all about the actual players read and recognition skills not who has the better items equipped and can use the right move at the right time....games that use D&D style rules for pvp are more of chess to me rather than actual pvp.   For pve though, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between being an alpha class jedi or a normal class jedi except bosses and tough dungeons.     So jedi were weaker as starter professions but that did not change the fun I had in PVE with them....it only increased the difficulty of playing with them a small bit.

     

    Overall, Jedi have to be part of any online based star wars game....for a standalone game, it don't matter....I mean I play republic commando and don't miss being a jedi in that game at all...but no one woule complain about that game because the concept is that you playing elite storm (clone) troopers.....and your only witnessing the star wars universe from that perspective.    in an online game though, you are supposed to be witnessing a whole galaxy and nothing that is a part of that galaxy should be left out...especially when it's a huge part of the overall story.

     

    Also, I think people fail to realize that no game can ever be fully committed to the timeline it's made in because in order for a game to remain a game and be fun, you have to stretch the limits of some things.  YOu have to allow some things that aren't possible in the real timeline.  If you don't, then you end up with a game that is, well like the current SWG....something majority of gamers don't even bother playing anymore.

    
    
  • Posted: 7/22/08 3:03 PM
    Star Wars Galaxies
• • Should Jedi be a starter class in KotOR MMO?

  • Well not bothering to read all the responses, just giving my opinion.  

     

    I think that as generations pass, jedi are loved more and more each day.   Jedi are the trademark of star wars and any game without them is not star wars.   It doesn't matter about continuity because for a game it's supposed to be about what players want that will make the game fun.   For an MMO, it's supposed to be versatile enough that you are not forced to play ways you don't like.   Such as being forced to play with a bunch of jedi when you don't like it that way or being forced to play without them if you don't like that.    That's why I have always been of fan of the idea of having special servers for different things.   Such as having a server wherer there are either no jedi allowed or only a small number allowed and cap the jedi population.  then other servers can have no cap or whatever.    I mean it's just like every game that comes out always have a few servers that have a lot more role play guilds on specific servers.   You always here people come to a game and ask which server is considered the best or biggest role play server or has the most role play on it.

     

    So why not do an official jedi only, no jedi, capped jedi servers or whatever may be the case.    Having played Cabal online where although you can PK players on channels that allow it, you can't actively PVP anywhere except on the War channel where you join nation wars.    If They can do that, why can't other companies take it a step further and make different servers.

     

    As far as resources, man power, maintainence, upgrade and upkeep of different versions of each server, I really don't see how any of that should be an issue when all you really have to do is use the same game on all server but just put some kind of command or function in place where the developers can just toggle an option on whatever server they wish and it automatically blocks the creation of jedi, limits the number that can be created or have unlimited jedi on any server they choose.    It would be no different than when you are restricted from using a particular weapon if your not the appropriate class or profession in a game....so why can't their be some kind of flag where devs can monitor or control how many jedi there can be on a server.

     

    This way, everyone gets what they want.  If you want freedom in being a jedi without restrictions, then play on a server where there is no limit or restrictions on jedi.  If you don't want to see a bunch of jedi, then play on a server where jedi are restricted or limited.  

     

    So i feel such an option would be better and you would eliminate all the people who complain about how hard it would be to unlock a jedi, that there are too many jedi, that jedi are much more or less powerful than other classes, that the star wars timeline is ruined by jedi (even though there are many jedi in KOTOR's time line) and so on.

     

    Personally, jedi do not bother me.  I don't care if there are 1 million jedi and only a handful of people playing normal classes.   To me, jedi is star wars and about 90% of me grew watch and loving star wars because of the jedi, not smugglers, not traders, not storm troopers (they suck anyway), not a rebel, not an imperial officer....etc.  It was jedi...it was moving objects with your mind, using your lightsaber, being super human, better, faster, quicker, smarter, more wise....etc.

     

    IT's no coincidence that majority of star wars revolve around jedi...they seem to be the main story going on since it is a sith or dark jedi that are the whole reason the galaxy are in turmoil anyway.    They proved that normal beings (or classes/professions if you will) are not strong enough to take the empire, dark side, dark jedi or sith out of power or stop them from ruining the galaxy.  It takes good jedi to do that.   So you take out jedi, then you don't have star wars, you have just another war style game between normal factions and the game ceases to be star wars.   matter of fact, other than concept, what would make star wars any different than star trek, star gate or any other such sci fi based game when there are no jedi.   All those other games have normal beings fighting each other with no separation of power between them.   Star wars does have a separation of power.   There are people who use the force and people who don't....the people who use the force are far superior though they are supposed to be the minority even during the time of Kotor as there are many more normal beings than there are jedi, sith or dark jedi.

     

    To me, just make the damn game with jedi, adjust how many can be played on which ever server and let players choose the server they wish to play on which satisfy's their idea of what star wars is supposed to be like...

     

    Really, star wars is the only game that players want to seem to alter so that it plays like they see fit.   I mean you don't see people wanting to take klingon's out of star trek or take symbiants out of stargate or any other powerful beings out of other sci fi games just because the masses of people would most likely want to play them.   I mean that's the point in today's games for most people....it's all about playinig the most powerful toon you can whether it be jedi or not.   If normal classes are made more powerful than jedi, then everyone is gonna play the normal classes and though they still moan about jedi not being what they should be, the bottom line is players go after the most powerful gun, the best armor, the fastest and highest damage.......because it's competition and in competition your goal is to be the best.

     

    I tell you 99% of players play to win and style, how you get the win, what you look like while fighting are choices very few players worry about.   it's like how real roleplayers are the minority in online "RPG" games...lol   Nobody complains about that like they do about powerful classes in games.....here you are playing a roleplaying game with roleplaying the lowest aspect on the totem pole...but you cry about whehter their should be jedi or not.....what's the point of having them or not if your not gonna role play the star wars universe....I mean isn't that part of the point?   To immerse yourself in the star wars universe...which just so happens to be the vision of someone else, not you or I or any of us playing the game....so stop trying to alter the game for your own taste and just play, focus on the positive and enjoy what you can....if not, move on to another game that you do enjoy.

     

    Doing this will relieve a lot of pressure off of the developers and they can really focus on making great games...but when they try to please too many people, especially when they are torn between two extremes such as jedi or no jedi, you weaken their ability to tap into the creative process and freely focus on great game mechanics, graphics, concepts, content and enjoyable playing experience.

     

    So in my opinion, everyone should shut up, thinking posittive, stop complaining, play the game for what it is and not what you want it to be and all should be fine....otherwise we the players will end up making KOTOR just another star wars galaxies mess.....I mean everyone seems to forget that the devs was trying to make the players happy when they made the changes they did....SWG was fine and was fun and great until devs started listening to players too much and tried to give them the best of both worlds....it all started when jedi entered the game really....so the problem is selfish players not the game, the story, the content or the devs....it's us.....we want too much too soon...nobody wants to work for anything and wants everything handed to them...

     

    That's all I really have to say about this....if the game comes out, I'll play it and if I like it, I'll continue to play, if I don't like it, then I'll move on to the other hundreds of online games there is to play...simple as that.   If enough people do the same, then either the game surives and is great or it won't and it dies.

  • Posted: 7/22/08 2:08 PM
    General Discussion
• • More talent removed from AO for other project.

  • Well my opinion, and a kind of a deep way of looking at things.

    It's about money people, nothing more, nothing less.    As soon as you realize the players are just a source of income to these companies, the better you'll be able to get over these kinds of choices that game companies make.   They do what they need to do in order to hopefully surivive as a company.....everyone aren't great businessmen or women....otherwise no business would fail....Nothing except time is forever....AO won't stay around forever and unless players start showing AO some love instead of whine about how FC is abandoning it, they nor anyone else will give a crap about what you think.

     

    The bottom line people have to understand, it's about masses of people not a small majority....no one is playing AO because they are to stuck on graphics issues or what a game isn't doing right rather than playing the game, helping fund the game and give developers more incentive to fix what you don't like.   It takes money to give you all those nice things you want in a game.....graphics, new content, nice new gear, more quest, less grinding, new and inventive ways of doing things.....but if  no one is playing because of all these superficial things, then the company has no choice but to attempt to make money in other ways.

     

    Really, I think what happens in anything in life is that as kids we value what's fun, we dream of being and doing things that are fun, will make us happy and keep us entertained....then one day a dark cloud settles over your house and his name is called "MONEY".    Money rains down on you and says to you that unless you have me, you cannot ever, ever, ever be happy and do what you want.   Money says, You are nothing without me.   Money says, if your not getting me, then what are you good for.  Money says, others won't care anything about you unless you have me.

    See the problem, money is a disease but the world don't see that....majority of the time all the worlds problems somehow, somewhere revolves around money....greed, selfishness and ignorance are close cousin's to money...but money still is the biggest of them all....I mean we put value on life....can't be born safely without money....can't die and be buried properly and given respect that loved ones should recieve without money....can't eat, breath, grow, learn without money.   When you do end up doing things without money, people disregard you as if you aren't on their level.....for instance, it takes thousands of dollars to go to medical school.....but the human mind is resiliant enough to learn the same things without going to shcool for it, yet the world says you aren't good enough to be a doctor because you didn't spend the money to go buy yourself a degree....so if you do try and put your talent to use, then we will throw you in jail until you go pay for a legal degree and liscense.

     

    Since we are all programmed to value money above all else, is it really surpising that FC would start taking devs off of AO (a dying game) in favor of one they hope will be good enough to compete with the other top tier MMO's and make them what?  

    MONEY.....

    Now look at yourself and say what do I mean to FC?   Am I a paycheck?  Am I a inspiration to the development of their game?   Am I that which drives them to even make games in the first place?   Do they even know who I am?  

    Hmm, I wonder how often they think of me when sitting at their desk thinking up things to create, build, alter or change....Uhm reality check people, 99% of the time when a human being is in a creative mode, it's all about whats in their head.....ideas are selfish in nature as no one makes things for other people (not ever).....instead they make things for themselves based on their own minds, desires and imagination....as a result, the afterthought is "I hope other people think like me and will like it".

    So that's why devs have problems with giving players what they want in games because now they listen to us and try to take our visions and make them a reality...but if they could easily do that, then they would have thought of it themselves.    In turn, that usually ends up breaking something, or creating bugs for which if it's severe enough can cause the downfall of the game or even the company.

     

    Look at SOE for an example, they tried too much to give the players what they want and you know the rest...

     

    I'll just finish by saying, shut up, pull out your wallet, play the game, enjoy what it does (not what you want it to do) and move on to the next game when the one your playing cease to amuse you.    

     

    think about this, when you first started playing monopoly (the board game, not talking computer ones), it was exciting and fun for what it is, but you don't whine about what it isn't....that's because you play monopoly for what it actually is......then there are other board games you can play when you want something else that monopoly isn't.....stop trying to make video games into something it isn't and gamers and developers will be much happier.

  • Posted: 6/18/08 1:43 AM
    Anarchy Online
• • STILL ALIVE

  • I am not fully sure if it will die, but certainly over the past 6 months I've seen a huge decline in the amount of players online at any given time.   when I started playing 2 and a half years ago, I could go to any dungeon, omni trade or anywhere in rome and see lots of players.   I could go on looking for a team and there were many players to team with and you would get team invites in a matter of 5 minutes and it was a matter of choosing which team you wanted to join.

     

    Lately, all those places are either empty or very low populated.  I go to any dungeon and I see maybe 8 - 10 people.   Even during supposedly peak hours I won't see more than 2 teams (and they aren't even full teams..more like 4  -  5 people).

     

    Certainly the froob population is down badly.  A lot of them have upgraded now that the population has dropped because most people left are paying players and in order to compete in anything you need expansions at the higher levels.  You don't stand a chance verse a sloob if your a froob at level 150+.  

    So surely I think the life of the game will greatlly depend on how well this graphics update is.   Also, I believe a graphics update should be the starting point.   Funcom has to have some physics and sound upgrades as well...and there are a few bits and pieces of the old game that needs fixing.

     

    However, in my opinion, I've noticed a lot new age gamers are more impressed by the look of a game and having next gen type graphics and that somehow is what makes games great to them.   Even though AO is probably the best MMO out there as far as how well put together, how much freedom you have and how well the game plays and is balanced (better than any other MMO I've ever played), yet players still end up disliking AO more often than not and the one reason why in which I see most of them have in common is because the graphics suck.    Seriously, that's what gaming seems to come down to these days...it don't matter how good the game is, if the graphics suck, then gamers don't like it.   In fact many of them will go play a game with amazing graphics but crappy in every other area compared to AO.

     

    Anyway, overall AO is one of the top 5 or top 10 MMO's and the graphics update (and really low subscription fees) should make it a contender amount sci-fi MMO's.   Certainly, stargate will have a large impact in the sci-fi genre of MMO's....if stargate is really good, that could mean bad things for AO....

     

    RIght now though, it is my opinion that majority of those still playing AO are die hard fans  and dedicated to it....much like those players who still play star wars rebellion (though not a MMO).  YOu do still have your new players here and there, but nothing like  when I first started playing.   90% of the time now though when I meet a low level player, he usually is just an alt of a level 150+ player who has been around for a few years....I rarely see new players....

     

    Oh and also, the orgs are starting to decline as well....not many large ones still around and many of the new ones are made using 5 alts and only have a hand full of members at most.    The tower wars have declined greatly too....Omni has been sitting at 13% side bonus for nearly a year now....in the past, clan would have forced it back down to near 8 - 9%.   I keep my bot running also and looking through the log, I don't see many tower battles being won or lost either.    One day there was only 1 (maybe 2)  tower battle won....so yeah that's a great drop off when I use to see 10+ battles per day.

    Whatever happens, I'll still play myself until the servers go offline for good.  I really enjoy the game and graphics don't mean as much as the substance of the game...yeah the graphics are choppy but I'm not bothered by cosmetics of anything...to me, loving the look rather than the quality of something is superficial and materialistic in nature and that's a bad thing because the fun should be in how the game plays, not how it looks.

  • Posted: 6/18/08 12:06 AM
    Anarchy Online