Profile: Ian_Hawkmoon
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• • Age of Conan Buddy Pass

  • I would love one too.

    the_druid_2001@yahoo.com

    Thanks

  • Posted: 6/09/08 6:37 PM
    Age of Conan
• • General: Govs in Games with Dr. Richard Bartle

  •  

    Originally posted by Wickersham
    

     

    Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon
    

     

     

    paragraph 1...  Yeah, that was the way it used to be.  But not any more.  Government does not really follow the mandate of the people...  Only when iit suits their (government) needs.

    paragraph 2...  Again that is the way it is supposed to work...  But in reality it does not work that way.  And we both know it.

    paragraph 3...  The government can step in any time or place it wants to.  It makes the rules.  Like it or not.  Look at all of the security acts that were passed just after 9/11.  And it depends on how you look at it...  And services can be taxed.  The government can step in and pass any law.  It is then up to someone else to fight it in court as wrong.

     

    (I am from Canada so I can not comment on anything you have typed above except to say that it sounds unbelievable to me.  I would ask that you cite an example that does not relate to the dangers of terrorism on how your government ignored the masses, please be specific.  Send me a PM or post it in the off topic forum - there is no point arguing it here since it is off topic.)

     

    Lets try another angle - an objects owner is the one that has full possession of an object.  Depending on the game, a player does have this (in some games not even this), but only in regards to their fellow players not in regards to the game masters.  Players do not even have full possession of their own characters within the game when it comes to game masters.  Game masters are the agents of the true owners.

    The true owners can prove their ownership by simply turning the game off.  Now - you prove that you own that virtual sword on your virtual character in your virtual back pack by preventing the game master from taking it away from you.  Who owns that sword?  Not you.  The government can not even suggest that you own anything because the companies ownership is absolute and can be proved with the flick of their wrist or a few keystrokes.

    It is nice to think that as gamers we have rights but the simple fact is we don't unless we ourselves organize and use our purchasing power on the MMORPG makers but even then they would have to agree with us.

    
    First off, I will PM you sometime later today...  :)

     

     

    Now two things here...  Especially with software, you do not actually own some software.  You own a license to use that software.   Take Windows...  You do not actually own the software.  You own a license to use it.  If you buy Windows Vista, you can install it on a set number of computers.  If you install it on more that that number you are inviolation of the law.  That is the law.  Not the government could change that law if it wants to.

    And just because you can shut off, or deny access to, something does not mean you own it.  Example, I can store and edit photos and documents online.  I own them, not the site that is storing them.  But they can shut their servers down and deny me access to them.

    Here is a question for you.  If an MMO company owns your character and all his "stuff", could they take your character or any of his "stuff" and give it to another player just because they want to since they own it?  I know it is extreme.  :)   But is your monthly subscription only paying for access to the game, or more?  They can, or have in the past taken items out of a game.

     

  • Posted: 4/09/08 6:56 AM
    General Discussion
• • General: Govs in Games with Dr. Richard Bartle

  • Originally posted by Wickersham
    

     

    Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon
    

     

    
    You do realize that the government can decide what ever they want.  The U.S. governemnt decided that the tomato was a vegatable for tax purposes, even tho it is actually a fruit.

     

    The government could tax the real money you make from selling fake money...  Good for the government.

    The government could easily make you pay taxes on your monthly sub fee.  And legally, you are supposed to collect taxes on anything you sell.

    The U.S government could still say that if you have subscribers living in the US that they own the VP.

    On your last part...   You would be surprised what the government would do.  After all thay have done stranger things then this.

    You grant far too much power to your government.  Democratic government acts on a mandate from the masses tempered by the law, the constitution, and the rights of citizens.  I will admit that there are dangerous times when the government behaves against its own principles but those changes are never perminant.  They are made with an expiration date attached to them.

     

    A deficency within the current rules of law, discovered by the people, would need to arise before the government will act.  They will investigate the matter (and spend a fortune doing it)  They will see what they are allowed to do about the issue with regards to the current laws.  The will create a bill for a new law or an amendment to be voted on.  The bill is voted on by the people you elected.  If it gains a majority vote it is passed onto the sober second thought who is also elected or in some countries appointed by those elected and voted on for a second time.  If it passes them it is brought to the leader and is enacted into law.

    There is no deficency within the current rules of law.  Subscription based MMORPGs are not manufacturing virtual products for sale they are providing a service - that is clear.  The government can't step in unless there is something which is unclear.

     

    paragraph 1...  Yeah, that was the way it used to be.  But not any more.  Government does not really follow the mandate of the people...  Only when iit suits their (government) needs.

    paragraph 2...  Again that is the way it is supposed to work...  But in reality it does not work that way.  And we both know it.

    paragraph 3...  The government can step in any time or place it wants to.  It makes the rules.  Like it or not.  Look at all of the security acts that were passed just after 9/11.  And it depends on how you look at it...  And services can be taxed.  The government can step in and pass any law.  It is then up to someone else to fight it in court as wrong.

     

  • Posted: 4/08/08 10:07 PM
    General Discussion
• • General: Govs in Games with Dr. Richard Bartle

  • Originally posted by Ingrod
    

     

    Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon
    

     

    You do realize that the government can decide what ever they want.  The U.S. governemnt decided that the tomato was a vegatable for tax purposes, even tho it is actually a fruit.

     

    For the most people and for culinary purpuoses tomatos are vegetables, vegetables is no a biological tern is a social tern.

    Law is mainly a social creation, in most cases for people and laws scientific facts are irrelevant, science cant demostrate or negate the God existence, but many laws are based in the religious people opinions or needs.

    You are correct...  Two points here.   1.  The only reason the government ruled that a tomato was a vegetable was to get the taxes from them.  2.  My real point was to show that the government can basically do whatever it want to to.

    I would say that laws are completely social creations.

  • Posted: 4/08/08 9:54 PM
    General Discussion
• • General: Govs in Games with Dr. Richard Bartle

  • Originally posted by Wickersham
    

     

    Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon
    

     

    
    Did you even read the original post in full?  In senario 3 it was proposed, what if, the government decided that you do indeed own virtual property.  So if the US government decides that a player does own the virtual property, what would the developing company do about selling ingame (virtual) goods for real cash?

     

     

    Yes I read the post and tried to explain why a government can't say that players own virtual property.  There is a difference between goods and services.  These MMORPG companies are providing a service they are not providing goods.  Only under certain circumstances can a government define a companies end product or services.  Those circumstances can't be found with a subscription based MMORPG.

     

    A government that gives a company the ability to create fake money and sell it for real money invites more problems than benefits for itself.  Bad for the government.

    Would you play a game that in addition to the sub fee the government has you pay taxes for too?  Bad for the gamer.

    The US decides that virtual property belongs to the players - what is to stop the company from moving to another country?  Bad for the company.

    You will never see the government make that call - instead you will probably see the reverse happen - they will prohibit the sale of virtual items but will not be agressive about enforcing it.

    
    You do realize that the government can decide what ever they want.  The U.S. governemnt decided that the tomato was a vegatable for tax purposes, even tho it is actually a fruit.

    The government could tax the real money you make from selling fake money...  Good for the government.

    The government could easily make you pay taxes on your monthly sub fee.  And legally, you are supposed to collect taxes on anything you sell.

    The U.S government could still say that if you have subscribers living in the US that they own the VP.

    On your last part...   You would be surprised what the government would do.  After all thay have done stranger things then this.

  • Posted: 4/08/08 7:17 PM
    General Discussion