Profile: RVallant
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• • Fail.

  • heh the game wasn't even finished when it came out. Thus everyone joined expecting a decent game with an original idea and ended up with a pile of turd.

  • Posted: 7/13/08 9:15 AM
    Pirates of the Burning Sea
• • F2P MMO Without A Cash Shop?

  • Originally posted by wack
    

    Originally posted by RVallant
    

    Originally posted by wack
    

    Originally posted by sanders01
    

    Guild wars, RF online, Requiem: Blood Mary. But these 3 you have to buy.

    Runescape is always another option :P

    
     

    all of those have cash shop/subscription models, except guildwars. you need to buy guildwars anyway.

     

     

    Guild Wars does have a cash shop in some form, special edition upgrades, skill packs et al for PVP and such. Though the advantage given in PvE is limited and since you don't really need every advantage possible in order to get through PvE I wouldn't really worry too much about it.

    
     

    true, i forgot about that. its not so much as a cash shop as it is a store, where you can buy expansions and extra character slots and such. Skill sets could be considered an advantage over other players though.

     

    Yeah but last I checked the skill sets were for PVP only, it's just an attempt to cash in on people who are too lazy to play through PvE, since once you gain a skill in PvE you get it in PvP. Ironically and rather amusingly you still have to unlock the skills in PvE after buying the PvP packs, so they make a mint and the player presumes to have skipped any "work"

  • Posted: 7/12/08 10:18 PM
    General Discussion
• • MxO Redux -would you have played this?

  • *FOREWARNING:

     

    This article was written by me for "The Last Free City". I have no qualms about people re-posting this, I wrote this way back apparently in 2007 and I thought I'd post it here for you guys to read if you wish.

     

    THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE IS EXTREMELY LONG. PLEASE GET A DRINK BEFORE READING! THE ARTICLE IS AN IN-DEPTH REVIEW OF WHAT I THOUGHT THE MATRIX ONLINE SHOULD HAVE BEEN. AS SUCH FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE OR AGREE WITH THE VIEWS INSIDE. I WELCOME ANY REPLIES.

     

    ------------------------------

     

    Warning the following post is extremely long.
    
    As a Matrix fan, I rushed to buy and play a certain game; The Matrix Online. I wanted to know what happened to Neo, I wanted to join up with Zion and usher in a new era of peace and see the new challenges and conflicts that the already strained relationship between humans and machines would bring about.
    Certainly The Matrix Online (MxO) had unlimited amounts of potential, an MMO based on a virtual world that would captivate you both in terms of storyline, the amazing bullet-time combat situations and the promise of tons of background information on the history of the Matrix itself.
    I always thought it would be awesome to do what Neo did, but I always knew we wouldn’t be able to. He was the one after all, no one would ever replicate his talents. I did on the other hand think along the lines of pulling off what Trinity and Morpheus and just about every other redpill managed to do in the movie.
    
    Wall-running, the jump program, kicking ass and taking names. As a red-pill we’re practically demi-gods our abilities limited only by how we think. Trinity and Neo (before he was the One) wiped out an entire building of SWAT, security guards and just about rode their luck when it came to surviving an agent attack. Morpheus too got into the act wiping out a whole room of tricky exiles with the aid of Trinity and Seraph, he fought agents multiple times getting beat in just about every encounter but even so you could just visualise yourself in his or Trinity’s position.
    
    A cocky new player with a desire to prove himself standing his ground against an Agent if only for a few rounds before hightailing it across the streets, heart racing as Agents (suffering a -500% hit penalty to their ballistic accuracy) missed as long as you kept on the move, knowing full well that if you stopped you were dead.
    
    So where did MxO go wrong? We’ve all heard of the 1-50 grind, the rushed, buggy combat, agents killing you in one hit at low levels… Did MxO only thing to take the very basic framework of the Matrix movies? A soul-less construct of grind and experience, secrets barely slipping through the net. You aren’t the One, certainly, but you’ll never ever be on the level of any previous Zion crew. Even the no-name redpills, while you never heard of their exploits (since they weren’t the focus of the movie) pulled off spectacular feats of excellence, just look at Jue pulling off one of the fastest drops in the known timeline to warn Zion of the machine attack.
    
    Indeed MxO has you just about battling things just about on your capabilities. Bluepill security guards, SWAT teams and so on are always scaled to your level, rivalling you with their abilities at times. Even run of the mill exiles can give you a run for your money at times, thus you never quite feel you’re an awakened person, indeed you’re pretty much a run of the mill guy swept up in the scheme of things. But then there are other things MxO fails on.
    
    A continuing story, in which, it is far too easy to miss. Progressing at a snail’s pace, nothing ever really happening fast enough to keep you excited and with such time constraints that you can easily feel left out of the story. An MMO without a story, an RPG without interaction, these things are all too easily happening within a construct where you are nothing, a small pawn in a bigger game with a storyline that somehow manages to offend more often than it keeps in line with the movies.
    
    So there comes a question, a desire, a debate. While the MxO will always have a “core” construct of players, who can wrap their heads around what is effectively a poorly thought out game, very few of those who are critical of MxO ever offer alternative solutions. What is the point after all when your cries fall on deaf ears and no one really gives a crap anyway.
    
    So, with the ramblings of it’s failures over I present an alternative game design theory: The Matrix Online Redux. I also offer a question… Would you ever play such an alternative?
    
    -THE MATRIX ONLINE REDUX:-
    
    -The background-
    
    In MxO you start off with a rather interesting character creation mode. Limited models, clothes and a few ragtag abilities to get you off the mark. The wonderful choice of stats, described in a poor manner, limited knowledge of the ability trees at least until you do some research or get into the game proper. A tutorial scenario teaches you the basics of combat both melee and range, controlling the camera and moving. Scenes lifted from the movies such as the “white room” and the subway with a hardline all interesting ideas but not really expanded on.
    
    The set up for the game is that so many people have been freed due to the truce that Zion is overstretched, limiting your abilities. So rather than learning to jump from the start you have to wait ten levels before you reach the basic “noob” abilities that standard movie coppertops learnt. Clothes are also limited by levels as are abilities, that’s fine but it could be addressed in a different more interesting manner.
    
    For example, the character creation could do with an overhaul. A preview of your abilities and the future path would allow you to do a bit of basic planning. Stats could be allocated in a way that allows you to specialise or balance your abilities out. A basic progress of three trees could remain but chopping them down to specialise as a gunner, melee combatant or an utility path. I’ll explain more as we go along so bear with me.
    
    The tutorial should set up the meeting between you and an NPC recruiter, the offering of the pill remains. The birth of your character however should push you into the training programs. A nice basic overview of the events that have happened so far to (a recap of the movies) pointing out your situation as a slave of a power plant and the revelation of the Matrix in a similar way to the movies. Pointing out that the truce is in place that you are entering a world of unlimited possibilities. It should cover as the original tutorial does, the basics of hand to hand combat, ranged combat and your utility abilities as well as introducing you to agents with the stressing that encounters with agents should be treated with respect and a hint of fear.
    
    Load the jump program, be trained in the basics of everything. Highlight your abilities as a Kung Fu fighter, or a duelist, point out the advantages of a rifleman while showing you the usefulness of the utility path of hacking, picking locks. Introduce you to bullet time and intractable objects, free your mind. You have the potential to run walls, to flip out of any tricky situation, fight alone or with allies almost anything of worth should be taught here, rather than simply combat and throwing you out into the world of the Matrix.
    
    -The instances of a world-
    
    MxO brings you one big sprawling city with no load times. The result is a rather empty world, populated with exiles who potter around for no real reason. Missions repeat forever with the exception of a few critical ones every seven years. This creates the impression that nothing is really happening in the fore or the background of the world around you.
    
    I propose that the MxO redux should be a combination of persistent and instanced worlds in a progressive manner. You start out in the Uriah Industrial district, the difference? Rather than jumping into the city head first, you’re put in a city-node. An area that everyone can enter and exit at will (barring hostile programs etc) a safe zone if you will.
    
    It is here in these safe zones that you will be able to meet with mission givers and contacts this would effectively re-write the whole mission structure. Using our “Uriah safe-zone” as an example here is what I would propose would be within it;
    
    The Training Missions - These are the Zion basic missions that teach you the conning system and are there to get you your first few levels and basic equipment and to guide you through the early stages of the game. They would reveal a bit of Zion’s mission structure or rather, how the early stages of the truce has affected life in the Matrix. A great chance to show the movie lovers what has changed from the translation of movie to game.
    
    Sub-mission quests - Something omitted from MxO, sub mission quests would be quests that are linked with the area’s storyline. In this case a group of red-pills affiliated to Zion would give you additional training for say, new clothes, abilities and a quest to access your first nightclub for example.
    
    Non-mission quests - Quests pertaining to the area that have nothing to do with the main story of the Matrix. These quests are doable anytime but best done when you’re the right level for that area although enemy level scaling could be implemented so you can return and do them later for a challenge. These quests could give you invaluable information about the city and the matrix.
    
    For example; Why are the Choppers the dominant force in Uriah? In fact why the bloody hell are Exiles pandering about in a city with ease when Agents should be hunting them down. The truce after all was Zion-Machine not Machine-Exiles. Perhaps there could be an Agent in the safe-zone who would offer you a reward and information for “helping your new allies” by cutting down on the Choppers.
    
    The potential for non-mission quests is one that was seriously overlooked by the developers. We all know Uriah is a free-fire zone where gang violence is rife and the community is “blasé” about seeing a dead body and cops every morning. But yet you’re throwing into this area where level 1 punks wouldn’t even shoot you if you poked them in the eye… Makes sense to you? Didn’t think so either.
    
    Then we have;
    
    The Exiles quest - Mercury in Uriah in MxO could be locatable in this safe-zone allowing you to do his missions, for a nice reward and showing you some of the background information between some of the more prominent exile contacts.
    
    Vendors - Would be within these zones ready to trade basic currency for new codes and clothing.
    
    -The Missions of the Instanced world-
    
    Since I spoke so much at length about the missions and quest available in the safe-zone we must look at how it would progress. Missions and quests would lead you to exits, you would leave the safe-zone into an instanced area of relevance to your mission. Allowing for a lot of scope for unique environments and areas as well as highlighting certain features. Chopper gangs hi-jacking cars and causing havoc in the free-fire zone for example, bringing proper “life” to the districts rather than plopping a few groups of npcs down and calling it “life”! -_-;
    
    Some of you may have played Guild Wars, as an example this is a rather similar set-up although I’d see the instanced areas actually changing based on the mission than being the exact same area you go out to in Guild Wars.
    
    But then, how would the entire scale of the game be any different from what we see now? By doing it this way you’re allowing the player to progress through the storyline without actually being left out or having to run archival missions and having to say you never took part. MMO’s have a problem in being too wide-spread that you’re just a little guy being screwed over rather than being a sort of-prominent figure. Take City of Heroes for example, you will never ever feel heroic, because too many of the storyline figures take centre role. They’re the “super-heroes” you on the other hand feel rather much like a run down “mini-hero” of no real uniqueness or value. The Matrix has a similar problem, but by having the missions running so you’re taking part from start to finish, even if your role in those missions is minor you’ve actually contributed somewhat to it.
    
    Once you’ve wiped through Uriah, you move on to the next area, unlocking the three organisations that would set you on your path to being a vital copper-top operative for them. Missions progress from then on as it would in an organisational way. Morpheus’ missions early on along with his death, the red-eyed agents and the tenseness of the truce. All the missions you can now only experience through the “archive” creating no tension or feeling of interest would start in the early zones. As you progress through the missions and zones because the story continues from A-B rather than A-wait seven years-B you’re not sat waiting, mulling over the inactivity of things to do.
    
    Each mission storyline would throw up a hundred different sub quests or at least ideas for sub quests relating to the missions (or not) that expands the game making it easily one of the biggest and more engrossing games ever to be made.
    
    The problems for this scenario? Well obviously you’d need the storyline to be in place. One that is written from start to finish, with room of course to expand allowing for extra missions and new storylines that everyone can progress to after completion of the main game. As we already know the MxO story is far from finished but it hasn’t really actually progressed in a timely fashion, with huges lulls and boredom in between. They had a decent idea but not the capabilities to pull it off, an MMORPG always has to have content and storyline in some form or another to get going with. Referring to Guild wars again, expansions can be released every six months progressing the storyline in a different time-frame, perhaps following your progress from a lowbie to a captain of your own hovercraft. Thinking outside the box is something the MxO encourages but never really delivers.
    
    With the set up described mind, the game if developed in a timely fashion would have had a basic storyline in place, with plenty of players getting stuck in and some progress being made.
    
    -The Clothing and abilities-
    
    One interesting thing about MxO which, annoys me no end is the set up of the loading construct. In the movies the loading construct allowed you to program guns and clothes with ease as well as putting you in the general area of your mission. In the game however none of this really exists…
    
    I think in the MxO redux an unlocking system would be perfect for the loading construct. Everytime you craft, buy the code or pick up an item for the first time you unlock it within the loading construct. This keeps with the idea of a lack of code and stretched resources within the real world. It would also allow you to basically “train” your operator to actually load these things up.
    
    This means that clothing and weapons would be level scaled. Not in terms that you have to be “level 100 to wear a black shirt” but rather the higher the level, the rarer the code or item in question. All clothes and guns will be blank in terms of abilities, they are just clothes. Guns will have their own damage output etc but clothes are just clothes. The purpose of keeping them clean allows you to wear what you want, while opening up a “buff system” that could be rewards gained through sub-quests relating to or not to the missions you’re running. These buff rewards would be permanent, acquiring a buff allows you to add it to anything and everything you want.
    
    The catch? Of course you’d need code-bits in order to craft these buffs onto the clothes you wish to upgrade and each upgrade is applied once. This allows you to customise your look and buffs (note that I’m not saying only one buff may be applied ever, but rather one buff of that type is applied at any one time; so no two Ballistic accuracies on the same shirt for example) and gives the loading construct a viable meaning in the game.
    
    You can utter Neo’s line for once; “guns… lots of guns” and have the whole collection of everything you’ve unlocked weapon wise drop down allowing you to enter the mission prepared rather than salvaging crap from the floor. Limitations in the real world aren’t stopping you or your operator from coding these things in the loading construct, especially not once you’ve learnt and saved them both in the matrix and the real.
    
    It also removes the whole obstacle of “level 40’s and higher are the only people allowed to wear tiger striped pants” crap that plagues a lot of games.
    
    -The Combat, do you know Kung-Fu?-
    
    Combat is a thing that has annoyed me in MxO. It is limited and basic, boring and bland. Much like my knowledge of the English language, it is quite frankly bollocks.
    
    In the movies, we see that a lot of redpills have a wide range of abilities loaded up. Morpheus knew Akido but he could easily handle himself with SMG’S and he even added sword-fighting into his repertoire.
    
    Trinity, knew how to fight in melee combat, she also knew how to run guns quite effectively but she specialised more in an utility path. In the first movie she flew the chopper, the next drove a bike, several times and she was well known to be an extremely good hacker with or without the operator’s help.
    
    The MxO’s limitations is splitting things into a basic three path “crafter, mage, fighter”. I don’t recall any “mages” within the Matrix of any decent skill that wasn’t an exile, I certainly don’t recall the crafter so much as him being the operator and a loading construct.
    
    I find it a touchy subject when say, my Kung Fu specialist can’t hack a computer because of his “memory” requirements and limitations. Indeed I’ve always felt that every single copper-top had some ability with computers and hacking. Even the crew of the Gnosis and Niobe as ever a non-computer geek as you could ever find showed their abilities in hacking and bypassing security implements and such.
    
    The only real difference was their effectiveness and abilities regarding their general areas. Ghost for example as the easiest to figure out, clearly favoured the gunning route, but it didn’t limit his effectiveness to the point of being a cripple in melee or being crap at running a simple command line.
    
    The way I envisage combat being set up is like so;
    
    A triple path of;
    
    Melee, gunning and utility.
    
    The Melee path when levelled unlocked newer, better moves and styles. Allowing you to get better at it while giving you the choice of levelling it or not. A low levelled melee score isn’t going to make you rubbish at melee far-from it, you’re a freed mind, so against bluepills and standard exiles you should be able to wipe the floor with them anyway.
    
    But up against specialised melee forces? That’s where you play to your strengths, if you favour your gunning over melee you stand more of a chance of victory utilising the environment to stay out of melee range. Hit the walls to jump out of melee range while peppering the enemy with gunfire for example. I want to see the combat become more tacticial especially against the more vital enemies and bosses who should give you a run for your money in terms of combat ability.
    
    A limit of skills to the standard ten would be a good start. The standard speed/power/grab/block are there for the animation purposes, while special moves are there to be executed to give you an edge. For example; Hitting the speed melee-tactic and facing the enemy in front of you would cause you to launch a flurry of punches and kicks, in retaliation the enemy uses a power attack. Forceful chosen blows would push you backwards but lets say they pushed you into range of a pillar. The pillar should glow a colour at this point and the next move you make, lets say you switched to power-melee; would see you kick off the pillar and land a sickening kick to the head.
    
    That is my vision for melee combat, 360 degrees of combat with the environment there to be used. Attacking from behind would see you sweep a kick to the legs followed with a chop to the neck rather than spinning them round for a slap and tickle. Walls and pillars are there to bounce off, or flip behind to dodge bullets.
    
    Speaking of melee again, the strength of it is purely in close ranged combat. But since bluepills always run with several machine guns, rifles and shotguns you’ll have a tricky time using it. Melee specialists would utilise the environment in the ways I proposed up above, but also would keep on the move, aiming to get into melee range while keeping out of harms way on the way.
    
    But no melee specialist is ever going to just run up walls and pillars dodging bullets to do that. Even Neo, prior-one, had some form of knowledge with guns. We all know he loved his kung fu, but that didn’t mean he couldn’t kill with a gun in decent time.
    
    Gunning is similar to the melee section, levelling it for more accuracy and for ease of using guns within close quarters depending on your weapon selection. It should in no way determine your actual damage output, a bullet to the head is usually death in any case anyway. I’d also remove the constant unlimited ammo crap. Even movie wise, operators and even agents never could reload their guns via programming. Gunning should be confined by the ammo you take and the slots you equip for it. If you take seven clips of ammo, then that’s your lot. Unless an enemy drops ammo, you’re not getting freebie bullets loaded into the chamber!
    
    Does this limit the effectiveness of a gunner? Maybe, maybe not. I see gunners as making their shots count although they can like Neo and Trinity, spew out the bullets without a care in the world. The reasoning I saw behind that is that redpills are effective in melee and range with equal measure, the specialisation of one or the other seems to be purely choice not talent and certainly never limited by the amount of grey matter your brain had.
    
    The Utility tree, should be where hacking and other more obscure abilities are. Lockpicking, sneaking, hiding in plain sight, disguises and so on and so forth. Hacking is available for everyone at base standard level, as is the mission map which, by all accounts the operator you’re dealing with should be able to load up through a feed with the Matrix. Would I eliminate the hacking class? Possibly, I don’t get the whole code-bomb, wave hand in air bollocks.
    
    I could easily see the hacking ability being extremely useful, hacking a computer to trigger security countermeasures for example, especially to use against the building’s occupants. Or unlocking computerised doors and disabling cameras. The path for the utility master should be endless, but is purely that, utility.
    
    In order to allow the whole thing to progress smoothly, three to five points of ability would be given per level. This would allow you to level evenly (one point in each) or specialise (two points in one, one point in another).
    
    Still though, the combat system is entirely open for discussion. Although I stress that set-pieces is a Pandora’s box waiting to be opened. Newer missions could be designed so that taking into account you’re more experienced, you could pull off stupidly insane bullet time stunts that make you go “wow!”. How hard are they to set up? Not too hard with some decent programming, all it takes is an intractable object and the right timing on the basis of a player and you could trigger the set-pieces. (These would be different from the standard wall-flips/jumps and environment usage in that it would trigger a cinematic or a planned showing of your character pulling off something special.
    
    -The Additional-
    
    Since the redux version of the game is based on a whole instanced/persistence world with a storyline that you’re an active player in there would be limited scope for live events. Indeed, the redux version of the game does what a game should do, it puts you in a focal point. There are some downsides to this, you will probably never really truly be unique in terms of what you’ve done in the Matrix. But then you’re never left out, undervalued or pointless to the whole game. You’re not a statistic, you’re a player and I think games should value you as an important part of the game rather than a common copper top patrolling for a cause.
    I’ve touched on things in other MMO’S, for example City of Heroes where, you never shake the feeling of being a bit part player. Guild Wars is another game that made the same mistake. The Factions expansion for example, put you in the role of a boot-licking background player of no real import and as such is the most hated games of the Guild Wars Trilogy. Look to Nightfall and the original, where you were put in the role of the protagonist or at least someone who was actually recognised somewhat within the game by it’s world and NPC’S if not the players and you can easily see why these two were given a hell of a lot more favourable reviews and opinions. MxO follows the path of Factions, I stress this perhaps too much but that is my feeling towards the game.
    
    In addition, the set up I’ve described gives players the ability to chat to one another about events that they’ve completed with some ease, without having to worry if they’ve missed out or cocked up. You’ve done it, they’ve done it, you’re both in the same boat so you can both relate and interact about the events, even if you can’t get stop for a moment and snap out of your “It was me, not you” confidence
    
    Henchmen and a persistent “hero file” are also aspects that could be borrowed from Guild Wars. You can solo the entire game, why not, but all those blue-pills that you’ve freed could be recruited as crew members for your future hovercraft when you’re captain. They could be given a template and personalities.
    
    For example the first recruit you get will always be your most loyal follower, a future vice-captain for all intents and purposes. The name will be unique, their abilities set up by you so you can customise them as you so wish, but their personality always the same. The reasoning? It gives scope for the developers to include them into the storyline should you persist with using an NPC crew. For example, a mission in the future could have one of your crew members betraying you, this type of storyline could be expanded upon in the background effectively introducing you the Cypherites if you were say “Zion” affiliated or to the “EPN” if you were machine affiliated.
    
    As I’ve said throughout, the potential for the Matrix ONLINE, is vast, unlimited and only restricted to the capabilities of your mind. The real thing however, as with the actual game was severely hampered by people with the memory capacity of 100... I feel it was never thought out, expanded upon or really used to good effect. Indeed the game was simply, rushed, limited and not particularly thought out very well.
    
    -The question, that drives us-
    
    So, having written seven pages of either inspirational ideas or utter garbage (opinions count), I must end my “essay” and produce the question. Would you have ever played or been interested in the Matrix Online Redux, with some or most of the ideas I’ve laid out within?
    
    Since mission grinding would be eliminated and the storyline put forth properly in a structured way, with you at the forefront or at least near it, interacting with the might Morpheus, Niobe and Ghost in a much more personal, idealised way. Would it then appeal to you?
    
    I don’t expect everyone to like every idea I’ve put forth, or to like every concept I think of. I certainly can see certain sects and people hating on the ideas and concepts. But for the interests of discussion, what do you think? As a player, a fan and of course as a red-pill wanting to immerse themselves in the world of the Matrix, in a totally different way to the whole 1-50 idea of what we have now?
    
    -Regards.
    
    -R.V - Ixifrit.

  • Posted: 7/12/08 9:53 PM
    The Matrix Online
• • F2P MMO Without A Cash Shop?

  • Originally posted by wack
    

    Originally posted by sanders01
    

    Guild wars, RF online, Requiem: Blood Mary. But these 3 you have to buy.

    Runescape is always another option :P

    
     

    all of those have cash shop/subscription models, except guildwars. you need to buy guildwars anyway.

     

     

    Guild Wars does have a cash shop in some form, special edition upgrades, skill packs et al for PVP and such. Though the advantage given in PvE is limited and since you don't really need every advantage possible in order to get through PvE I wouldn't really worry too much about it.

  • Posted: 7/12/08 9:35 PM
    General Discussion
• • Why are instanced games bashed so much?

  • I disagree with the "it breaks immersion" rubbish. That's just either a crappy game design or your choice of moaning over something.

     

    The one thing Guild Wars had going for it despite being instance heavy that a lot of other MMO's fail to pick up is an "immersive" story. The whole instancing situation there allows the player to be take centre stage and be the hero without giving you the impression of "oh well nine thousand people around me are doing the exact same thing" (Yes I understand they ARE but for all intents and purposes you're not constantly reminded of it.)

     

    Additionally, it does allow for time-specific situations to be occuring. For example the fugitive escorts over the Shiverpeaks in the original game was linked to your quest log. If you hadn't completed the respective quest, the fugitive lines would be harrassed by centaurs.On completion of the quest though, each time you re-zone you get the fugitives trickling through without being harrassed anymore (since you took them out) this is near enough impossible to do in an open world. Indeed sometimes while an open world is handy for the various benefits it brings, one of those that it usually fails on is bringing an immersive storyline or role for your character. City of Heroes for example always has you feeling as if you're a backwater hero rather than a SUPER-hero... but yeah that's my view

  • Posted: 7/01/08 6:00 PM
    General Discussion